Saturn devours his children.
This post started out as a comment On Dr Goode’s blog post ‘Is Ron Paul a Libertarian’, yet as it focused on just one aspect of his post, and grew longer and longer by the minute, I decided to make it a post in its own right.
Richard was responding to a Not PC blog post criticising Ron Paul in which he lists a set of ‘Ron Paul positions’ which in Peter’s view are incompatible with Libertarianism. One of these was the fact that Ron Paul is opposed to abortion.
PC is expressing a commonly held view, and because many Christians oppose Abortion and want it recognized as murder, they tend to agree with PC that ‘to be a Libertarian means you must condone abortion’ and therefore conclude from this that ‘No Godly Christian can be a Libertarian’
Today I seek to destroy this false assumption. I have herd Abortion is the most common medical operation performed in New Zealand. A huge number of Woman have had abortions, and so this is a very difficult subject to discuss. It is a Subject many prefer to keep hidden in the shadows.
I am a Christian, and a Libertarian, and I am 100% anti-abortion.
Politically speaking Abortion is one of the most difficult of subjects to deal with.
I think its murder… yet still don’t see how it can be banned, without compromising/destroying some of the most vital principles that underpin a Libertarian government, esp the principle that woman own their own bodies, and that Government is formed by consent…a compact between people of different race, culture, and religion.
As a Christian, I don’t believe a utopian Human government is even possible.
Sinful men in power must be given as little power as possible…thus I certainly do not believe moral salvation is possible via human Legislation. Thus I don’t expect the government to be the solution to all mankind’s woes. Thus I don’t expect the Law to solve the abortion problem. Furthermore if abortion remains legal, there is nothing stopping Christians from publicly expressing their Moral outrage at the practice, and via converting souls to Christ, They convert them to the belief that an unborn child has the God ordained right to life…thus I am saying Christianity (and other anti-abortionists) can still work to convince the population to voluntarily abandon this wicked practice. Christianity operates properly via Liberty…via preaching Godly values…not by lobbying for the political oppression of unbelievers.
In such a society that allows Abortion, Homosexuality, drugs, etc a Christian can still function fully as a Christian. Just because society practices these things, does not violate his rights or liberty, doe not mean he must sanction them, etc. He can deal with these sorts of things as he encounters them… by practicing his faith and following his convictions.
In a society that allows abortion (Like the Status quo) Men can avoid having their children aborted by guarding their seed. Taking care not to impregnate girls whom don’t share the belief that a child’s life is sacred, and first asking for a life long commitment from a girl before impregnating them. This would not Guarantee the marriage, but such a process is at least the honorable course to take, because it shows honest diligence in such a weighty thing as deciding to bring Children into the world.
Sacrificing children to the God Molech.
And Even if Abortion is tolerated in a free society, getting rid of Socialism… and their anti-Christian/ Pro-abortion Nanny State would still be a great improvement on the status quo because the Tax payer would no longer be forced to fund this mass murder against their will. Thus this would then mean those who oppose abortion can exercise their right to completely separate themselves from this practice.
That the government extorts taxes from us by force, and then uses the money to pay for mass extermination of unwanted children is absolutely an intolerable situation.
I would love to put an end to the practice of Abortion. By daily propagating Christian Libertarian values I am working towards that Ideal. I really struggle to believe a social compact between Atheists and theists is possible which includes making abortion illegal. I think The Christian argument against abortion is true, yet inadmissible because it crosses the line between church and state. The social compact being framed in secular terms which are acceptable to all reasonable individuals. (Secular truth is not ‘atheist truth’, but truth that stands by its own merit… (eg Both theists and atheists accept Euclidian geometry…for self evident reasons). I think Christians who go to the Law to solve society’s ills are acting in a very unchristian way. I think Christians who actually think the government can be so constructed as to deliver perfect justice… are deluded…and expect far too much from such an all too human institution.
Finally let me note the fact that Moral virtue springs voluntarily from the Heart… not the Law. Woman are not displaying any virtue by carrying children full term simply because the Law prohibits abortion. Conversely Woman display great virtue when they choose to carry their children full term, when the easy and legal option would be to have an abortion. They are practicing their Humane values as to the sanctity of human life.
In a society that allows abortion, Woman with strong Christian values ought to be revered and courted for marriage far above Godless/ unscrupulous woman… because of their values. Thus in a free society which allows abortion… Godly woman ought to have every advantage over the infidels…and prosper.
A libertarian society is not Utopian. It cannot halt all evils. It cannot foster an angelic society. It is a Compact… a peace treaty between disparate groups and individuals. The compact lays down a minimum of terms by which these disparate groups can coexist in peace… if not harmony. Thus the government is not the font of all justice. It is strictly limited to the agreed terms of the peace treaty, and so many practices will be legal which some members of the society will find abhorrent. Eg Cigarette smoking. To many people Cigarette companies and shops which sell cigarettes are Death dealing murderers… Yet Smoking cigarettes cannot be justly banned according to Libertarian principles. So too with abortion… yet this does not mean that all Libertarians must indorse Abortion, or must submit to it as helpless victims. They can work to reduce it and even completely eradicated it without recourse to political force…via preaching. This is exactly how the Christian Missionaries effectively halted Cannibalism here in the early 1800s. They proved Christian values can overthrow ungodly wickedness. That’s Christianity in action.
The many great evils that would manifest themselves should Abortion be banned is also a heinous prospect. The rise of horrific illegal alleyway abortionism. The tortured existence of unwanted children living with desperate and malicious parents… etc etc. All Children go to Heaven when they die… All aborted children are saved… and even if Abortion is Legal, the Murderers shall not escape justice! All People whom murder their children shall stand before the judgment seat of the Almighty.
For those whom have had abortions there is but one way to escape the wrath of God… That is to call upon the name of Christ. He died to pay the penalty of sin for all whom reach out for Gods grace and mercy.
Many woman whom have had abortions carry a heavy burden of guilt. It is to you that I share this message… You can have the forgiveness of God… if you will but call upon Christ… and you will meet your child again when you go to Heaven!… Because that is where they are… right now.
End Note: I am still working on this issue in my mind…
The Jurisdiction of a libertarian Government is limited. It does not extend over all time, places and people. A NZ Libertarian Government could not protect the rights of people, or convict Criminals for crimes which occur outside the country… and in a sense this is a similar circumstance to the situation of the rights of the unborn child. If a criminal injures a pregnant woman and the child dies, this is a very serious offence, yet they are usually prosecuted for the injury and loss to the woman… not for murder. I don’t like this, yet struggle to find a solution. ?
Tim Wikiriwhi
Update: 15-3-16.
The following video puts a very important question to Pro-abortionist, many of them choosing to avoid answering it because somewhere in their consciences they realise the argument that ‘A fetus is not a person’ absolutely falls apart… and that killing a Baby a day before they are to be born is no different to killing them the day after they are born.
It is a great argument Anti-abortionists have and it makes a very good case that if not at the beginning of pregnancy… that *at some point*… the Law should protect *the rights of the unborn child* from being murdered by their mother… and that an overwhelming majority of people could be convinced that such Laws would be just. (Just to Recap my position… I do believe abortion is murder… yet this post has been all about whether or not it can be banned in a free society without violating the essential principles upon which it hangs).
This argument (below) will still work to end abortion… even when there are no laws to ban it…. by convicting individual consciousness that it is wrong.
And so Anti-abortion folk are not absolutely defeated even when abortion is legal.
They still have the power of reason to convert others to their way of thinking.
Update: 10-2-18
My Blog on this subject I wrote several years ago… Abortion poses a serious dilemma for Libertarianism, and I tended to lean towards preserving a womans sovereignty over her Body… yet this position has been almost too heavy to bear in the light of how legal abortion has turned this into virtual genocidal levels of murder… its an industry… and woman have become so callous about it.
In the dilemma between the Right of the baby to Life, and the womans sovereignty over her body… I believe the Legal weight should be in favour of the innocent children… esp given Woman can prevent themselves from having un-wanted pregnancies by other moral means.
Wonderful post, brother Tim – and I wholeheartedly agree with you 100%.
I am a Christian, and I am coming to more and more of a Libertarian understanding (with help from people such as yourself) – and I am Pro-Life, anti-abortion —- YET —- I firmly believe that a woman has the right to choose, even though I do not agree with abortion.
Keep it up Tim – I really enjoy your posts (even when I dont agree with you!).
Beau
A brilliant post, Tim.
And perfect choice of soundtrack. 🙂
End Note: I am still working on this issue in my mind… I don’t like this, yet struggle to find a solution.
It’s tricky. And you acknowledge that. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
Im definitely pro choice for the first and even second trimester but have a real problem with late term abortion and the conflict between that and a womans right to her own body. I don’t consider conception as the defining threshold of human life but the development of a functioning brain but the development is a sliding continuum not a neat clear point in time like conception.
There is no need for Christians to try and change NZ abortion law because it is already correct. Most abortions are currently illegal, it’s just that there is contempt for the law and the law is not enforced. BTW – NZ law is mostly justice based – there is no woman’s right to her own body.
Also, the law regarding injuring a pregnant woman and having the child die is this…
Crimes Act § 182 (1) Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years who causes the death of any child that has not become a human being in such a manner that he would have been guilty of murder if the child had become a human being.
Tim –
What would you do to stop a mother from murdering her child in front of you?
Would your Libertarianism prevent you from saving the child?
I would absolutely intervene Reed, and dont you believe you own your own body?
Regarding abortion, I think it is irrelevant whether or not a person owns their own body.
During my training in obstetrics in 1988, I performed about 30 first trimester abortions. I am still a certifying consultant for abortions, as I believe woman should have legal access to abortion services, though it should be user-pays. It is an absolute abomination that Catholics and others opposed to abortion are forced to fund it through taxation – just as the propensity for Catholic priests to violate children is abominable I don’t have an issue with aborting a pregnancy before 13 weeks gestation. I do have quite a bit of trouble condoning abortions over 22 weeks gestation when a lot of fetuses can be salvaged. I cannot in any way endorse a full term ‘partial birth’ abortion. A woman who has waited 40 weeks before she decides to abort is a murderer in my view, and that puts me at odds with the orthodox Objectivist view, which holds that the fetus is the property of the woman in whose uterus it grows. Is a fetus who is post-term (over 40 weeks gestation) and whose health is deteriorating by becoming ‘overcooked’ as it were, human with attendant rights? How does a fetus suddenly become human with all attendant rights just by tunnelling out of a vagina, or through a hole in the abdominal wall? Does a fetus possess rights before the umbilical cord is cut and before it takes its first breath? I don’t think the question is as black and white as some Objectivists would like to believe. To me, a full term baby whose existence is no threat to the mother but rather a perceived inconvenience, should not have its head drilled and its brain ripped into pieces by a needle, and its shoulders smashed so it can be pulled out. How could that not be called murder?
Richard McGrath
Were the 30 abortions you performed legal, i.e. were the abortions genuinely to prevent harm to the mother?
Did you commit fraud when you filled in the paperwork?
Richard McGrath
1. The propensity for Catholic priests to violate children is abominable.
2. The propensity for doctors to violate children is abominable.
3. The propensity for Maoris to violate children is abominable.
You agree with statement 1.
Would you agree with statements 2 and 3?
Where in the Bible does it say that abortion is murder?
Where in the Bible does it say that abortion is murder?
Exodus 21:22-25
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Genesis 9:6
6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved
Thank you for your comment Richard, though I find it shocking that a Man who has sworn the Hippocratic oath could be involved in such a thing.
You demonstrate that High order Morality and Amorality can co-exist in the same person. (This is true of us all… we are all sinners)
I say this because I know the great many Humane Ideals that you hold, and busy yourself to propagate.
As I contemplate your activities there appears on one hand a massive contradiction between the ideals of Libertarianism and Abortion, as the classic Libertarian believes rights to be inalienable… thus ‘Endowed by God’…or at least by Nature… not a convention determined by the opinion of society. Society is derived from recognition of these rights, not the other way around. Yet on the other hand, to form a free society, we must find and maintain absolutely clear and iron clad boundaries which limit the Power and Laws of the government, as well as recognize the government is merely a convention… a compact based upon consent of the governed, and the separation of Religion and state.
In my view the Best absolute boundary that can be found is Individual sovereignty over our own bodies.
To answer Reed… The ownership of our own bodies is of absolute importance, and this is why giving the State any powers which cross over into the sphere of Personal sovereignty is such a dangerous president that it threatens to undo the whole Libertarian argument of Limited power.
Individual Sovereignty appears to my mind the most reasonable, and clearly defined Demarcation point to government power, that has any hope of being the basis of agreement to form a Government of equality before the Law, that keeps Religion and state separate, between such disparate groups as Christians and Objectivists.
If everyone was of one mind, there would be no problem in either allowing, or banning the Practice… indeed ‘Freedom’ is only important because people want the liberty… not to conform to common opinion…. Not to exist in a regimented order… want to think their own thoughts, and pursue their own happiness… in their own way.
Thus the Libertarian Social compact cannot be all things to all people. It is a bare minimum of rules that are acceptable to all liberal minded people, and form an overlapping consensus upon which a compact can be founded.
In such a society many things would be allowed that would be considered by some immoral and wicked… yet they would be within the bounds of personal sovereignty, and thus not violate the rights of those people whom disapprove of them.
This is not a perfect situation, yet in my view Human Government can never be utopian.
In my Christian View Government is a Stop gap measure… a means of mitigating the Tragic condition of sinful Mankind being separated from God. Human government is necessary to minimize the depravity and wickedness of Mankind unto each other… until the return of Christ, at which time Human government finishes, and God himself shall be King of Kings.
Man ought not rule over Man.
Human Government can never take the place of Gods Rule.
I’m my mind Richard M you demonstrate the powerful delusions of our age of Evolution and Materialism. I am sure you have thought a great deal about the ethics of this subject… probably a great deal more that the rest of us considering you get the very blood of children on your hands.
I ask you Richard , Have you hardened your heart, and seared your own conscience so that you can sleep at night and keep face as a Man of medicine and convince yourself that you still hold human life to be sacred?
John Locke, and Francis Schaeffer both saw the Christian theistic cosmology as an essential underpinning to Rights, and believed Atheist/ materialism could never have formulated inalienable rights which are a ‘Higher Law’ to merely Human conventions and opinions.
I believe you approach to abortion demonstrates this to be true.
Just suppose for a moment that there is a God and that he has deemed the unborn child has the right to life. Just imagine for a moment that happy little faces of the those children playing with toys… that will never be because you have terminated them.
Would you not Fear Gods wrath?
Can you not sense the contradiction between abortion and the Hippocratic oath, and the sanctity of human life?
Ask yourself…”Have I no guilt?”
Thus I say your acceptance of this abhorrent practice stems directly from you accepting the atheist world view, and in my mind it sullies your soul.
Of course the Sin of Abortion has historically been practiced by many so-called Christians… usually in an attempt to hide fornication or adultery (It is said that thousands of Catholic Nuns have had abortions, and have even practiced infanticide post birth)
This is Sin upon sin.
Why you are thinking over about the oetus which not yet have any concious mind and argueing about its rights and god made that child to come into the existence ignoring the woan who carries it as a part of the system?You are too sentimental about still unborn child and so cruel about the woman who is not ready to bear the child and unable to nourish the baby after she gave birth.
You are leaving yur girls and women like a bitches who could get kisses any where and at any time from even a stranger and then branding it as adultery,how shamefull you are!Sidney sgheldon and other famous writers will make a standard description that goes like that she is the only girl which doesn’t have sex with boys and her friends mock her wit titles like granny – why that speciality fr the heroin of a novel?Becase, Reader will identify with hero and heroin must do sex only with hero!If she is not a heroin of a nvel, She no need to be pious like that.What those authors are doing is revealing the double morality of so called anglo-saxon or christian orality,Is it not?
First check your morality concepts and family system and reform those evils.This dilemma of “shall we do abortion or not?” ceases automatically once you recognize women as equal or greater than men!
If you had any resoect for motherhood, you won’t think as you are granting any rights or freedom to woman – you will feel proud to be the best child of your mother and yiu think what you did as a reciprocation of her service to you! Before thinking that a pregnant 13 year old innocent girl as prostitute, think about it is your sin to make that delicate body to suffer wit unwanted child!
P.S:Religion must not be practiced in a wrong way to cause pain anybody – Main puropse of religion is to remove pain.JESUS SAID THE SAME THING AND WHY DO YOU GO THE OTHER WAY?
I would like to also say that my wife Joy and I have a 14mth old Boy, whom was not planned. And though in my opinion we were not candidates for ‘Parents of the year’, and that having the child was going to be a massive life changing/ plan altering/ heavy obligation yet still we went through with it because of our belief that we were morally obliged to do so. We had no valid option. Now we have our beautiful Baby Boy!
He’s number 1 in our lives. Though we struggle financially and have many restrictions upon our liberty, We love him and thank the Lord for such an amazing blessing.
The idea that millions of beautiful children just like him are killed, not because of any other reason than simply for the convenience of selfish and careless sods is abhorrent to me.
If convenience trumps Moral obligation… morality is meaningless.
Tim, as I said in my earlier Ron Paul post, abortion is not a moral issue. It’s a metaphysical issue. All libertarians hold that human life is sacred. The question is, when does human life begin? Where in the Bible does it say that human life begins at conception?
Tim, get a vasectomy!
The bible doesn’t say that life begins at conception.
Lev 17:11 says “For the life of the flesh is in the blood…” this seems to imply that if there is no blood then it’s not living which would mean that life doesn’t begin at conception.
Job 31:15
15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
Psalm 51:5
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 139:13-16
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Isaiah 49:1
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Matthew 1:18-20
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Luke 1:15
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
Luke 1:41-44
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Galatians 1:15
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
Genesis 9:6
6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.
Gary
I agree that the Bible says that life begins in the womb but that doesn’t mean that life necessarily begins at conception.
If our lives don’t begin until there is blood then there’s no life until a couple of weeks after conception.
I am perfectly happy to apply the same criteria that would be used by Nasa scientists to determine if a substance is or was ‘an organism’, and by looking at the Genetics deem the type of organism that it is, and I am sure that in the moments after Conception and Cell division and multiplication occurs that this would be accepted as ‘life’ if descovered upon Mars etc. That Doctors (evolutionists) have come up with different standards for deeming a human to be ‘alive’… eg brain function… so that they may harvest organs for transplant seems to me a double standard. This is not to say I disapprove of an Individual granting consent that their Organs may be harvested under such dire conditions.
I would not get too hung up about ‘The life is in the Blood’ statement Reed. I don’t doubt that My life is in my blood, ie that to remove my Blood would be fatal, yet We Christians cannot expect Atheists to accept that scripture. Whereas We Christians would accept that organic compounds which contain DNA and were multiplying, by drawing substance and energy from the environment and converting them to sustain themselves, and or grow
Would constitute a living organism. No double standard required.
Let me also state that I feel sadness, not hatred, for those people whom think abortion is a legitimate form of birth control. I feel sorry For Richard M, that he has been convinced that it is.
Also is it not interesting that while Richard approves of early gestation abortion, he recoils at Late abortions, and has no problem with contradicting a woman’s sovereignty over her own body in this circumstance…deeming such practice Murder. Thus if He accepts the state may overstep the bounds of individual sovereignty in such instances… his rejection of the state being able to intervene at an earlier point becomes strained. Thus the Ideal demarcation for political rights would be Conception, and i don’t see any reason why if it be plausible that politically speaking a woman might be said to own her unborn child as property, that conversly it cannot be argued that instead the Unborn baby could be deemed to own the Mother as Property. The fact that The flip side of freedom is Responsibility, there is an argument to be made that a woman ought to take every precaution to prevent herself becoming pregnant and that once she has done so she is obliged to bare the child .
When you combine all these variables which only exist because of the atheists refusal to acknowledge a human embryo as being human… we see that the whole problem is created by atheist charades and refusal to sign a Social compact which grants rights to the Embryo. We may liken them to the Inhumane Bastards of 1776 whom would not sign the Declaration of independence until Jefferson removed the portions which granted Liberty and rights to slaves… and thereby Ruined the entire moral integrity of the document .
This is the Problem these Atheists create in ruining the foundations of a free and just society.
I am perfectly happy to apply the same criteria that would be used by Nasa scientists. . .
Should I let you remain happy?
The issue of abortion will never be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. I’m not particularly proud of being involved in performing abortions, but I believe legal abortion is preferable to unsafe backstreet terminations of pregnancy, and if I can help prevent maternal deaths through provision of safe operations, I will.
Having said that, of course contraception is the answer and infinitely preferable to abortion. Abortion is not contraception. And anyone that opposes abortion will surely oppose the State imposing the death sentence on criminals.
Richard McGrath
From your explanation it sounds like you think that pragmatism trumps righteousness.
Leonard Peikoff at Huffington Post
1. The propensity for Catholic priests to violate children is abominable.
2. The propensity for doctors to violate children is abominable.
3. The propensity for Maoris to violate children is abominable.
You agree with statement 1.
Would you agree with statements 2 and 3?
Yes.
Were the 30 abortions you performed legal, i.e. were the abortions genuinely to prevent harm to the mother?
Did you commit fraud when you filled in the paperwork?
There is no way of knowing whether continuing with the pregnancy in each case would have caused (psychological) harm to the mother. The questions in the legal papers are ridiculous and redundant.
When does life begin from a biblical point of view?
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Exodus20:13 “You shall not murder.”
Psalm 139:13-16
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. Exodus 23:7 Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked Psalm 127:3
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.
Exodus 21:22-25
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple Job 31:15
Did not he who made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb? Psalm 127:3-5
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate. Romans 9:11 Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—Isaiah 66:9 Shall I bring to the point of birth and not cause to bring forth?” says the Lord; “shall I, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb?” says your God. Isaiah 49:5 And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God has become my strength—Psalm 106:36-39 They served their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured out innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood. Thus they became unclean by their acts, and played the whore in their deeds. Psalm 22:9-10 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
Thou Shalt Not Kill
Throughout the Bible God has plenty to say about the taking of an innocent life. Most people in our nation, though they may not be familiar with all of the Ten Commandments, know that “Thou Shalt Not Kill” is listed there somewhere. The word “kill” in this instance, specifically refers to “murder”–a premeditated and deliberate act of taking someone’s life. It is different than other forms of taking a life, which could be accidental, or in self-defense. God has different laws regarding different sorts of death. But He continually opposes and speaks against murder, especially murder of the innocent.
Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land and atonement cannot be made for the land on which the blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live. Numbers 35:33-34
God’s judgement against the killing of an innocent life grows out of His love for humankind. The crime of murder is not only an offense against the sanctity of life, it is a pollutant upon the very land we live. God wants to spare us of the variety of ways this pollution is manifested. When the land becomes defiled with sin, people cry out “where is God?” yet they refuse to take responsibility for breaking His laws which were only given to us for our protection and good. Each sin that we commit is not merely an isolated incident, but will set off a chain reaction of other sins if not dealt with. Since the legalization of abortion for instance, child abuse has increased over 1000%. This is the exact opposite of what those who legalized abortion thought it would do since it was assumed that only children who were initially unwanted were abused.In Psalm 106 God speaks specifically against killing innocent children and babies. He says of His people: They mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. They worshipped their idols which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughter to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan and the land was desecrated by their blood.
Today we may scoff, or wonder in disbelief how anyone, especially someone who claimed to follow God, could sacrifice their child to an idol or a demon. Yet, an idol is anything that we worship before God. Today, children are sacrificed to the idols of selfishness, convenience, “freedom,” and ambition–sacrificed to the very demonic powers that are behind such idols. Times really haven’t changed that much. Human nature hasn’t changed, nor has Satan’s schemes against that which God considered so precious that He died to redeem it–human life.A Scientific View
Just 18 days after conception, the baby’s heart begins to beat. At six weeks, brain waves can be measured. (when a person has no brain waves. they are considered dead) At eight weeks the vital organs are functioning and fingerprints have formed. At nine weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel pain. Over 700,000 abortions each year are performed after this point in the pregnancy. By the beginning of the second month, the unborn child, small as it is, has begun to look distinctly human, though the mother may not even be aware that she is pregnant! By the time the baby is eleven weeks old, he or she breaths (fluid), swallows, digests, sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and feels pain. Babies born prematurely can survive outside the womb as young as 20-25 weeks old. Yet, all that is necessary to make the baby a grown human being is already there from the moment of conception. All it needs is time to mature.
Former Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop stated “We now know when life begins because the test-tube baby proves that life begins with conception. What do you have in the dish? An egg and a sperm. What do you add to it to get a baby? Nothing.” Though it is wee, it is still a real person, just as a crumb of bread is still real bread. No one who has been given the gift of life should dare despise the day of small beginnings. Have we forgotten so quickly that we were once as small?
“In the tiny, almost invisible thirty two cell blastocyst–in that one gram or so of tissue–there is a physical potential and moral destiny unparalleled in our universe. Next to it, a gram of plutonium is a triviality: plutonium cannot compose a symphony, cannot cure cancer, cannot plan our course to the stars”. -Bernard Nathanson, M.D. and former abortionist- A Spiritual View ……..God said to the prophet Jeremiah, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 God knew this man before he was born. As he was forming in his mother’s womb God gave him his personality, talents, and temperament. If his mother had gotten an abortion, the “fetal tissue” she aborted would have been a real person named Jeremiah; a mighty prophet of God and the gift of God’s voice to the nations, though she would never have known.
The Lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 KJV
Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us within our mothers? Job 31:15
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14
The above verses are only a sampling of the many Biblical references we find to life inside the mother’s womb. From them, it is clear that life begins when God creates it, not at some later point in time when it has grown to look like a newborn. God does not judge things according to their stage of development the way humans tend to. According to the above passages, even the tiniest embryo is the subject of His love and care. God sees each of our lives in the realm of our total existence, whether we are yet unborn, a young woman in the prime of her life, or an old man on his deathbed. He is patient with all of us, longing to bring each one of us into His maturityTo wantonly destroy innocent human life is a crime against God, and a rejection of the truth that we were made in His image. Everything in the universe belongs to Him anyway. The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world and ALL who live in it. Psalm 24:1 Our own lives are a precious gift given to us, but ultimately we belong to God! We are His possessions; we have merely been granted stewardship over our lives, talents, money, time, the earth we live on and the things we “own.” Though children pass through us they are not ours, anymore that we are property of our parents. Each of us has been given the gift of life and freedom, for which we are responsible and accountable to God. None of us has the right to deny that same gift to an unborn person. It is an honor to carry that powerful force of another life within our very bodies– a life made in the very image of God! (Genesis 5:1-2)
God is no respecter of persons. If He knew Jeremiah in the womb, He knew you too. Do you believe that God lovingly fashioned you and loves you dearly? Do you believe that He has had a plan for your life from the beginning of time? A plan that none other can fulfill in quite the same way you can? That you came to this earth “trailing clouds of glory?” Or do you believe in your heart that you were a mere “accident” and that God has no personal concern for you or your life? Is it easier to believe that you are just a highly evolved animal? An animal (especially an undeveloped one) may certainly be easier to dispose of. It seems somehow even “natural,” as the laws of nature lend themselves to the survival of the strong and the equipped. Yet it seems doubtful that even an animal would come up with a way to deliberately kill it’s unborn offspring.
Even the jackals offer their breasts to nurse their young, but my people have become heartless like ostriches in the desert. Lamentations 4:3
Oh, let us turn from our heartlessness and defend the sanctity of human life! Out of respect for God, let us offer mercy and compassion to every life around us, born or unborn. Let us be givers of life instead of takers of life.
Every 20 seconds another baby is aborted in this country, yet very few seem to notice. Statistically, one out of every three of us will die by abortion, and we will never know what we lost in those lives. Our country goes along its way leaving lawmakers in distant buildings to decide how the carnage should continue. We’ve bought into the lie that those we dispose of are not real people. It is the same old lie that was used to keep slavery legal, and to exterminate masses of peoples in holocausts all over the world. We should be able to see through it by now, but as usual, most of us let circumstances and the current cultural climate dictate to us what is acceptable or not. Yet God tells us to: Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say “But we knew nothing of this,” does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? Proverbs 24:11
In our society today we face a myriad of social problems as a result of our hypocrisy. Most of us have had to become somewhat doubleminded just to keep a vestige of sanity. We put warnings on cigarettes and alcohol, that their consumption is dangerous to an unborn child. Yet we deem it perfectly legal, even “responsible” for a mother to have a doctor poison that same child inside her, or rip it to shreds with a surgical instrument. We might charge a man who kills a pregnant woman with a double homicide, yet what if that woman was on her way to the abortion clinic to dispose of her baby anyway? Do we then charge him with a single homicide? Why do 21 states have legislation to delay a death sentence imposed against a pregnant woman who is guilty of a crime, until after she delivers her baby? If we really believed what we said about the unborn child being a mere blob of tissue, it would seem that no one would mind if that baby died along with the mother in the electric chair.
We wonder how respectable college kids can throw their newborn baby into a dumpster, yet what are we supposed to think? We’re the ones who told them that it is irresponsible to raise a child at their young age and that an “unwanted child” (which is a fallacy) is better off dead. They are not to blame as much as the media, the lawmakers, the abortion counselors, the doctors, and the voters. When a woman can have an abortion on a nine month old unborn child, and yet a week later be tried for murder if she disposed of the child outside the womb (which at that point, would seem to be a much easier and practical way to dispose of the baby) what are the young people of this nation supposed to think? Do we really have to wonder at the lack of respect for human life that we see around us?
Evil prevails when good men, in the name of freedom, do nothing. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil. I Peter 2:16 Very few of us would argue that crack cocaine, or rape should be legal simply because people are going to do it anyway, yet that is the argument that is applied to abortion. As a nation, our morals and ethics vacillate between honor and convenience, integrity and greed. We are slouching towards everything we have stood against and hated from the foundation of this country, yet we pave the way with our apathy. This doublemindedness has become a cancer eating away at the very heart of our nation.
History will speak of our abortion as a mark of the absolute decadence of our era. There will come a time when we will look back on abortion with the same shame we do now towards our evil treatment of the American Indians, and the blight of slavery. We wonder why history continues to repeat itself.
Freedom is not doing whatever suits our fancy at the moment. That will only bring slavery and sorrow to our souls. True freedom is having the power to know what is right and to choose accordingly. But how can we choose, if we do not know? How can we obtain true freedom?
You shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free. John 8:32
We must cleanse our minds by the washing with the water through the WORD. (Ephesians 5:26) God’s WORD is the Bible–ancient, yet ageless and seething with life. It will literally clean our thinking and bring life to our sin-deadened minds so we can see what He sees and feel what He feels. It will reveal our very thoughts to ourselves.
For the WORD of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
Respect for God, His creation, and His Holy WORD, is the only way we will ever find true freedom. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but fools despise wisdom and discipline. Proverbs 1:7 Wisdom and compassion cannot be found outside of God for He is wisdom and He is love. Long before heaven and earth were made, and long after they disappear, His WORD will still remain. On the Day of Judgement abortion and every other atrocity we have tried to justify will be shown for the evil it is. We must seek God now, while we have the time to do it! Today is the day of salvation.
It is not too late to repent and turn our hearts back to the Lord. We can bring healing and life to this land that we love if we will humble ourselves before God’s mighty right hand. If my people, who are called by my name, and humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. II Chronicles 7:14
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If you have already had an abortion, please do not feel that this was written only to bring you under guilt and condemnation. What is done is done and cannot be changed. God has your child in heaven with Him, and longs to forgive you if you ask Him to. Once God forgives a sin, He literally forgets it, and DOES NOT HOLD IT AGAINST YOU ANY LONGER! Please do not hold against yourself what God has forgotten. Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I, even I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Isaiah 43:18, 25. Receive His love, for He loves you just as much as the child you lost. He already took your sin and bore it upon Himself so you would not have to bear the punishment, which would be eternal separation from Him. He knows the agony you’ve gone through better than any other, for He was there too, with you. Open your life to Him and let Him give you a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of the spirit of despair. He will make you into an oak of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display his splendor. Isaiah 61:3
In conclusion, the words of God ring out as clearly now as they did over 3,000 years ago:
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your children may live, and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice and hold fast to him. Deuteronomy 30:19-20
http://youtu.be/sc_TgP3QLE4
The above video is from Jane Roe from the famous Roe verses Wade she is today a prolifer, a Christian, She has 3 Daughters and in fact has never had an abortion, hear her story in her own words!
Judge Andrew Napolitano: Why I am a Pro-Life Libertarian
Read more: http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/judge-napolitano-prolife-abortion/#ixzz4H3rrB8mL
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http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/judge-napolitano-prolife-abortion/
For me this question is still not settled… yet I do believe that even if abortion is still legal that we can work to eliminate it via personal ethics and cultural pressure… If a child can be removed from the woman without killing it, and at no greater risk to the woman than an abortion, and voluntarily adopted, then you would wonder what principle would still make it the woman’s right to abort… as parental rights don’t extend to killing a healthy child… ???
Why you are thinking over about the oetus which not yet have any concious mind and argueing about its rights and god made that child to come into the existence ignoring the woman who carries it as a part of the system?You are too sentimental about still unborn child and so cruel about the woman who is not ready to bear the child and unable to nourish the baby after she gave birth.
You are leaving your girls and women like a bitches who could get kisses any where and at any time from even a stranger and then branding it as adultery,how shamefull you are!Sidney sgheldon and other famous writers will make a standard description that goes like that she is the only girl which doesn’t have sex with boys and her friends mock her wit titles like granny – why that speciality fr the heroin of a novel?Becase, Reader will identify with hero and heroin must do sex only with hero!If she is not a heroin of a nvel, She no need to be pious like that.What those authors are doing is revealing the double morality of so called anglo-saxon or christian morality,Is it not?
First check your morality concepts and family system and reform those evils.This dilemma of “shall we do abortion or not?” ceases automatically once you recognize women as equal or greater than men!
If you had any respect for motherhood, you won’t think as you are granting any rights or freedom to woman – you will feel proud to be the best child of your mother and you think what you did as a reciprocation of her service to you! Before thinking that a pregnant 13 year old innocent girl as prostitute, think about it is your sin to make that delicate body to suffer with unwanted child!
P.S:Religion must not be practiced in a wrong way to cause pain to anybody – Main purpose of religion is to remove pain.JESUS SAID THE SAME THING AND WHY DO YOU GO THE OTHER WAY?
And,If the girl or woman is rich enough to buy a doctor,she won’t be caught.Only when she is a poor or middle class girl or woman,she is becoming a victim to these cruel bishops and other purists!Morality and Immorality living together is a dogma,Person who is immoral and a person who is moral can live together,but both could not live in single man/woman. All of you were in a moral confusion.If you get rid of that confusion about what is right and what is wrong about sex,marriage,child birth and parenthood the question of “shall we do abortion or not?” will be meaningless.
Abortionist who went on satanic tirade to pro-lifers has died
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/abortionist-who-went-on-satanic-tirade-to-pro-lifers-has-died
Thanks for sharing!
He aborted over 48,000 babies. Then he pulled a baby’s beating heart out with his forceps.
(LiveActionNews) – It should have been a routine abortion in the early second trimester. The woman was having her ninth abortion, as former Serbian abortionist Stojan Adasevic describes in the documentary “The First Hour.”
Adasevic, who is now a pro-life leader in Serbia, had performed over 48,000 abortions before doubts about the procedure made him stop —other sources claim that number is closer to 60,000.
Adasevic credits his pro-life conversion to two things: an unusual series of dreams, and this particularly disturbing experience he had while performing what should have been a routine abortion. He describes the procedure:
“I opened up the womb, tore the placenta, the birth waters flowed out, and I got to work on the inside with my abortion forceps. I grabbed something, crushed it a little, removed it, and threw it onto a cloth. I look, and I see a hand – quite a large hand. The child was 3, perhaps 4 months old. I had no tape to measure it.
At three months, a preborn baby is fully formed with fingers and toes. All of the organs and body systems are present. The baby has fingerprints, and breathes amniotic fluid in preparation for life outside the womb. Adasevic goes on to say:
Someone had spilled some iodine on a part of the table and the hand fell in such a way that the nerve endings came in contact with the iodine. And what happened? I look and I say, “my God, the hand is moving by itself.” I nevertheless carry on with my forceps, and again catch something, crush it, and pull it out. I think to myself, “let it not be a leg.” I pull, and look. A leg.
I want to put the leg on the table, carefully, so that it isn’t near the moving hand. As my arm falls, I hear a bang behind my back. I jumped, and automatically, my grip on the forceps loosened. At this very moment, the leg completed a somersault and fell next to the hand.
I look – both hand and leg are moving by themselves. I nevertheless, once again, direct my instrument into the womb, and begin to crush everything inside. I think to myself that all I need to complete the picture is the heart. I continue to crush, and crush, and crush, and till I am sure that I have ground everything inside into a pulp, and once again pull out the forceps.
As I pull out the mess, thinking it will be bone fragments I lay it on the cloth, I look, and I see a human heart, contracting and expanding and beating, beating, beating. I thought I would go mad. I can see that the heartbeat is slowing, ever more slowly, and more slowly still, until it finally stops completely. Nobody could’ve seen what I had seen with my very own eyes, and be more convinced than I was — I had killed a human being.”
https://www.lifesitenews.com/pulse/he-aborted-over-48000-babies.-then-he-pulled-a-babys-beating-heart-out-with?fbclid=IwAR0BxGoXAeg22OgANXyy0g1VrX9TaVvzSdn9UcIItrpA4MuSD4pn57_vJkg&utm_content=buffer3f50a&utm_medium=WCEA%2BBuffer&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=WCEA
““I’d like to thank my friend Ashton Kutcher for bringing back my testimony,” he said. “It’s like the walking dead because it just won’t stay down.”
Stephens said he doesn’t want to make abortion illegal, but instead wants to make it “unthinkable.”
“About abortion, I don’t want to make it illegal,” he said. “I want to make it unthinkable. Politicians change laws. I want to change people’s hearts. I want to change people’s hearts by changing people’s minds and hearts together.”
https://www.lifenews.com/2019/02/02/special-olympian-frank-stephens-i-dont-want-to-make-abortion-illegal-i-want-to-make-it-unthinkable/?fbclid=IwAR2to_WOJXKD13FzncoS2CYrxE20Fw447y4OisMldrWGWpgnLLlQ3k4Xv6w
https://youtube.com/shorts/KBJAWEtvb8Q?feature=share