Book Reveiw. http://undpress.nd.edu/book/P00167
“Focusing on the issues from the standpoint of philosophical theology, Walls explores the doctrine of hell in relation to both the divine nature and human nature. He argues that some traditional versions of the doctrine are compatible not only with God’s omnipotence and omniscience, but also with a strong account of His perfect goodness.”
“This book is a gem, clearly written and accessible to philosophers and non-philosophers alike. Within a fairly brief scope it covers the central issues and arguments relevant to its topic . . . Further, the book makes a case that universalists will find very hard to answer.” —Religious Studies
“Walls . . . does not think that because a culture trivializes the concept of hell it does not exist, nor does he think that belief in the existence of hell compromises belief in a good and loving God.”—Christian Century
“Hell: The Logic of Damnation is a forcefully argued reopening of questions that most liberal theologians had long thought to be decisively closed. . . . Jerry Walls has provided a bracing antidote to the moral frivolity and evil of our time.”—First Things
Sorry about this next one Richard. Get well soon Robin!
19 thoughts on “Hell: The Logic of Damnation.”
Which traditional versions?
What are his arguments?
Does he think that belief in the existence of Auschwitz compromises belief in a good and loving Fuehrer?
I have a copy of his book in my shed. Ill dig it out.
As for Auschwitz… God allowed Hitler to rise to power. God told the Jews that curses would fall upon them and their children should they disobey Him and Reject Christ. It was all part of the conditional covenant they had with him.
That God allowed such an atrocity as Auschwitz to happen ought to give you pause to consider that such a God *could* create a hell too… and throw Hitler in it to suffer for eternity. Ie The reality of Auschwitz make such a thing as eternal punishment in Hell much more probable.
Having said this … It does not justify Hitler’s crimes, any more than the fact That Christ’s death on the Cross was part of God’s plan of Salvation… It was still murder.
What Hitler did to the Jews was *Unjust* as was the crucifixion of Christ. Ie They were not guilty of any crimes that Hitler accused them of… (Neither was Christ guilty of any crime… he took great care not to breach Roman Laws… he even paid Taxes… The jews hopped he would rebel against that so that they would have a pretext to deliver him to the Romans.)
Yet God’s judgement of Guilt fore Sin will be just… because all whom are to be so judged *Will be guilty*. Thus God’s ‘Auschwitz’ will be filled with Criminals… not innocent victims.
That Eternal Damnation is a fact is why God sent Christ so that whomsoever calls upon his name shall be saved.
Here is another Reveiw of substance. I have not read it. http://scripts.justwilliams.com/archive/review_damnation.pdf
The Big point to be made is that Auschwitz does not compromise the belief in a Loving and good God… neither does eternal torment in Hell. These are realities we dont like, yet that in itself is not evidence of injustice on Gods Part, or evidence that God does not love Mankind, or evidence God is evil.
These are difficult things for us to swallow. They show us our need to …”Trust in the Lord with all our Hearts, and lean not to our own understandings… (Prov 3vs5) Had Adam done exactly that he would not have fallen into sin.
*Justice* is part of God’s Holy Nature. That is an article of Faith.
Now this raises a serious question Richard. Ie what is your motive regarding your posts on this subject which deny the Bible teaches eternal damnation? Is it because you sincerely believe the Bible does not teach this doctrine, or is it because you simply cannot believe that if God is a good and loving God, and the Bible is truly his word that it could possibly teach it?
Ie do you personally find the doctrine so unconscionable that it is absolutely incompatible with a Good and loving God?
This is important because if you personally think the latter then this compromises your objectivity in choosing to support a clever interpretation simply because it suits your sentiments, rather than perusing the truth…no matter where it leads.
I personally would Love to believe That Nobody was going to go to hell… I would rejoice at that… yet I will not allow myself to Judge God by my standards… and twist the scriptures simply for my own satisfaction.
Its also interesting and important to appreciate that God does not want anyone to go to hell either! He has bent over backwards to make salvation as easy as possible! its a free gift! Those who will be eternally Damned have rejected God… and they will get their Wish… eternal separation.
A couple of years ago I drove up to Auckland Uni to watch Matt Flannegan debate with Prof Bradley on the Moot “Is God the source of Morality?” in which Prof Bradley spurned Christ for teaching Hell. To him that was proff enough that Jesus was an Immoral fraud. In this debate (it may be watched on You tube) He said that morality must be baced upon sentiments.
At Question Time I was lucky enough to get oppotunity to question him on these things. Firstly I touched upon how dubious a foundation ‘sentiment’ was, and then said that Objective morality is founded upon *objective facts* not feelings. I said that if Hell is indeed *an Objective fact* then would not Christ be *Immoral * if he did Not to warn us about it?
To which he had no answer…
And this raises a serious question for you, Tim. What do my motives have to do with whether or not the Bible teaches eternal damnation?
Yes. I believe that the Bible does not teach the doctrine of eternal torment.
Yes. I believe that the doctrine of eternal torment is not compatible with a loving and just God.
But my main motive is one you have just illustrated. Bradley spurned Christ because he thought that Jesus taught the traditional doctrine of Hell. But Jesus didn’t teach the traditional doctrine of Hell. It’s a malicious rumour.
You want people to spurn Christ? Tell them that Jesus taught the traditional doctrine of Hell. Christ spurned! Satan, laughing, spreads his wings.
You speak from sentiment Richard, ie you simply dont like the doctrine of eternal Damnation, not from Objective morality ie God deems what is just punnishment not us. It is Natural that we dread the notion of Eternal Damnation, yet our dread of it is not sufficient grounds to deem such a proposition as contrary to the nature of a good and loving God.
And what is worse still is you have allowed your personal opinion to govern how you interpret the scriptures ie because you find the doctrine of eternal damnation to be distastful, you rationalise your way around it.
I am sure you probably do the same thing in respect to Noahs Flood and for the same reason… ie you dont like the Idea Of a Judging God whom would destroy the world by flood.
I found my copy of this book and I actually scanned the chapter ‘Hell and divine Goodness’… and posted it here yet because the scan quality was poor I trashed it.
I could e mail you the scan coppies if you want to read it.
Let me say that No one would be happier than I To believe that my lost friends and family will escape an eternity in the lake of fire… yet reality is not governed by my Whim. God has every right to judge as he sees fit. I understand this. I also know the every one of my friends and family have had the oppotunity to recieve Christ as their saviour… If they do not do so… they have made their choice to reject salvation and will pay for their own sins…. In the lake of fire.
The idea that I speak from sentiment is just wishful thinking on your part, Tim.
I speak from reason. And there is no good reason to think that hell exists in the first place. It’s not even mentioned in the Bible! (Sure, hell is mentioned 54 times in the KJV. 31 times as a mistranslation of Sheol, 10 times as a mistranslation of Hades, 12 times as a mistranslation of Gehenna and once as a mistranslation of Tartarus.)
OK now we are really getting to the nitty gritty of it all. You dont believe the Bible is Gods pure word! *You believe sophistry… *human scholarship*… which has duped you into thinking when the Bible speaks of hell… that its been mis-translated! (How convenient)
Thus when you stand before the Judgement seat of God Almighty you expect him to congratulate you for *Not believing* he had preserved his word perfectly.
You expect to be judged, *not by the scriptures*, but think God will pull out a ‘Peer reviewed’ Journal on Textual criticism!
The real problem you face is the calibre of the King James Bible translators was Giant Even if you go by scholarship they tower over your pathetic bunch of modern liberal Bible correctors!
Also I would like to know with what urgency do you go about preaching the Gospel of Grace? Is the Gospel the most important truth to you as a Christian? or is being a Christ merely like being a member of the ‘Rightest’ philosophy/book club?
What more….according to your teaching of annihilation… the atheists are right. ie when you die…you die! *That is what they expect* thus what you call Gods judgement is nothing more than what the atheists already expect. Ie it equates to *no judgement* at all.
Me I expect to be judged by the very words of the King James Bible.
For me I can barely sleep at night with concern for the Importance of evangelizing the lost for Christ.
Question: Would you Die for the sake of the Gospel?
The Bible? Which one? Wait, don’t tell me … the KJV?! No, I don’t believe the Bible is the unadulterated Word of God. How could it be? It’s been in human hands for the past 2000 years or so … as Jesus *knew* it would be … which is *why* he spoke in parables and answered questions with questions!
But I can tell you this, Tim. Sometimes when I’m reading the Bible … it smacks me in the head! That’s how I know it’s the Word of God.
You are right Richard yet oh so wrong!
Yes the Bible is full of warnings that corrupt wolves dressed as sheep would corrupt the word of God. Yet… and here is the Miraculous part…. God promised that in spite of these attempts to contaminate and tyrannize over the scriptures that he would *preserve them for all generations*
Thus it is true that the world is full of corrupted texts yet that does not negate the promise of God… *There is a line of uncorrupted manuscripts which culminated in the translation of the King James Bible!*
I will do a set of blog posts on this subject. It is a massive undertaking. Yet it is necessary to defend the truth of the scriptures so that we may have faith in them and assurance of salvation, and submit to them as the Final authority in all matters.
The Bible is as Important as Christ himself! He is the Word incarnate.
*I am the way, *The truth* and the life… “Thy word is Truth”…. Study to shew thyself approved unto God; a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, Rightly dividing *The word of Truth*… He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
“Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away.”
Now if you are honest in your reasoning Richard you know that my position is valid. Ie just because there are many corrupted scriptures does not mean it is right to assume they all are… and that to do so actually denies the promise of God to preserve his word… and also you must understand the essential need for God to do so because *everything depends upon it* from the salvation of the saved to the damnation of the lost. The reason God gave us his word was to free us from the whiles of Priest-craft and Sophistry! It is our direct communication with Him. We need no ‘intermediates’
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” .
The Bible destroys the authority of ‘Mob rule’ and democracy because though the whole world seeks the pleasure of a lie, a single individual with the Bible in his hands can condemn them all, and make his stand and appeal upon the absolute truth of the Divine revelation. The Bible is everything!
“I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.” Psalm 138:2
“The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” Psalm 12vs 6,7.
You are what you eat Richard. If you take your teachings from Bible doubters and reprobates whom think as atheists do… you will end up a Bible doubters yourself.
By Gods grace I am I bible believer… He led me here!
I operate on the reasoning of the Higher spiritual plain which is foolishness unto the Natural Man
*Read the first 3 chapters of 1 Corinthians*
I am the Low base thing that God uses to destroy the vain wisdom of the wise. I am nothing… It is God who takes pleasure in using me for his purposes.
“Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”
2 Tim 1vs9.
“Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.” Acts 4:13
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
2Tim 3vs 16,17
“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
THIS TIME HAS COME!
Today so-call Christians have fallen into apostasy.
Today they have rejected bible as the truth.
Today they cannot endure sound doctrine.
Today they have turned their ears unto fables.
Instead they choose to listen to textual critics, and deniers of The holiness of the scriptures… those whom think the bible ought to be treated like every other human text of ancient world… ie full of superstition and error!
*Professing themselves to be wise they became fools!*
And finally for you Richard… Dont follow the fools!
“… let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.”
Robin Gibb Defies the Reaper! AMEN!
Bee Gees Singer Robin Gibb Wakes from Coma, Astounds Doctors
Read more: http://au.eonline.com/news/bee_gees_singer_robin_gibb_wakes_from/310639#ixzz1sqtfH5SB
The concept of eternity in Hell is terrifying. If you die tonight, where will YOU spend eternity???