Category Archives: Cosmology

An argument for Chaos… does it explain the Universe as we know it? Part 1.

I belong to a ‘Physics’ social media page.
On it a certain person seeking to justify belief in the Natural Unguided Evolution of everything posted the following….
Do you consider the following scenario impossible, and if so , why? I think the following scenario is possibly true:

“We are all part of the same universe that appears to trend towards disorder in the forward direction of time, following laws of nature. And we are all subject to “mistakes” that a universe makes as it does its thing. And we are all subject to “successes” that a universe makes as it does it’s thig. And what one of us perceives as a “mistake” , another may well perceive as a “success”. All as the universe (with us as a part of it) continues simply doing it’s thing, following laws of nature.

@Tim Wikiriwhitagging you as this is the main post requested.”

He also attached the following video…

***********

I begin my critique….

Ok…. very interesting Ideas… yet when you analyze the premises we do not find true ‘Chaos’… but a chain of causation. Materialistic Determinism.
There is a lot going on here… for example the multi-pendulums appear to be behaving quite differently when in reality they are all obeying the same ‘natural laws’… so it is wrong to see this as any significant difference… or chaos.
The Lady says @ 3:18 ‘Our Future has not been written yet’ … which is contradictory to the fundamental premises…. for if we could describe the infinitesimal differences between the starting points of the pendulums, and other conditional differences they encounter (including Einsteinian level fluxations) in their motions… we could predict where their motions into the future and explain why they appear very different…. ‘no real chaos’ involved.
Under this cosmology everything we see in this universe must be explicable via an unbroken chain of natural causation all the way back to when the Big Bang exploded… including what you perceive as all your personal virtues… and vises…. unfulfilled hopes and dreams!

It is because things like Objectively binding morals and values cannot be derived from Materialist premises that those who are committed to the materialist idea are forced to arbitrarily deem such things to be illusory.

In the same way any notion of ‘Beauty’ also must be ultimately meaningless…. for beauty is a value judgement that has no place in the cold reality of Elements and motion… and yet we have a perception of Beauty.

now the ultimate question is this… can such ‘Chaos theory’… as enunciated in the video… working with the materials we find in this universe… have sufficient explanatory power to answer how it is we humans exist on this planet… orbiting the Sun?

My answer is an emphatic No!

There is a missing essential paradigm…
I will speak more of this tomorrow… yet lets contemplate the Space Station…. How it orbits the Earth… How in doing so it fully complies with the Laws of Nature…. and yet while it does not contradict the Laws of Nature… it’s existence cannot be explained in purely natural terms… via a chain of causation that leads back to the Big Bang.
There is a special element that needs to understood…. and I will leave it here… and carry on tomorrow.

Just one or two or three more things to ponder… What was the cause of the Big Bang… from where did this universe ‘pop’ into existence? And what prevents your rationale from hanging upon the absurdity of ‘Infinite regression’? For If this universe is not eternal… it had a beginning… and if it had a beginning it must have had a cause… was there by your reckoning… an infinite chain of causation? Or Ultimately do you accept the necessity that there exists *some un created Ultimate reality*?
For the first question of Philosophy is …. ‘why is there something rather than nothing?’

Tim Wikiriwhi
Christian Libertarian.

More from Tim…

WRONG BET STEPHEN HAWKING.

Faith, Science, and Reason. The Pomposity of Atheism.

The Rusty Cage: Scientism.

Et tu Brute? What is Scientism: William Lane Craig

Willful Ignorance and the Limits of human reason (without Divine Revelation.)

The Rock of Divine Revelation.

Death of an Atheist. Follow the evidence.

Rapturous Amazement! The Advance of Science Converts The High Priest of Atheism to Deism. A Flew.

Pasteur’s Law, Creation Science vs Nose Bone Atheism.

Russell’s Teapot really refutes Atheism not Theism!

Biomimicry… Plagiarizing God’s designs.

Car Crash.

How can a Good God exist when there is so much evil in the world? (part1) Atheist Nihilism.

Materialism renders Man Nought. Meaning-less, Value-less, Right-less

We are not Robots Ayn Rand. We are Moral Agents.

Monism: Evolutionary Psychology and the Death of Morality, Reason and Freewill.

The Earth Moving Through Space. Mind Blown.

I like to chillax and contemplate this mind blowing relationship and the appreciation that everything is in motion… Craft IPA in hand.

This is obviously an artistic child-like interpretation… very simplistic yet one step above the usual static Sun conception.
Not to scale… and only contends with the Sun, Earth, and Moon… so no ‘orbital plane’ (which itself is only something relative to a static Sun… and which ought to inspire awe given the whole conglomerate is in serious motion) .

All the bodies themselves rotate.

These simplified types of visual still have value, helping us expand our notions and make them more sophisticated, and yet we would be very disturbed should such a visualisation be made to scale… with the correct motions for example the Sun does not travel in a straight line but itself follows an orbital curve.

Yet I am not sure anything better than this abstract conception could be presented in this format?

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA

Helical pitch greater than the diameter.

The distance between the Sun and the Earth is way off,(proportional to the diameter of the Sun), the Earth and Moon are at least 10x too big by the same measure, and the ‘pitch of ‘the helical Screw’ @ 800,000/hour ( year length) ought to be about 7x the Orbital circumference length of the Earth about the Sun, which would barely be recognisable as comparative to this artistic impression… placing our helical path at an extreme acute angle comparative to this… esp so if our orbit is not in fact perpendicular to the suns motion … as this diagram suggests… which is also probably an inaccurate simplification.

If our orbit is skewed to the Suns motion, then for an outside observer moving in parallel to the Sun it would appear that at times we would be accelerating slightly past the moving Sun, and then dropping behind it…
Trying to visualise the actual motions is mind-bending… esp how far out into space the gravitational effects of the Sun extends… dragging even Jupiter along for the ride… at breakneck speed!

Anyone see fault in my musings?

Tim Wikiriwhi.
Christian Libertarian.
Engineer.

THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED. SCIENCE IS NO ESCAPE FROM THE HUMAN CONDITION. (Part 2)

Further thoughts that continue on from Part 1 here.

Science is no escape from the human condition… that gospel purported by many…is false.

Though we may increase in mastery over nature…certainty will always escape us… thus science is a pragmatic pursuit, not a source of absolute knowledge.

With every new answer comes new questions.
We will always rely on axioms and presuppositions… we cannot escape the need for faith… which underpins what we think we know… even the things we are most sure about….

I guess my original post could have been called… ‘Beware of Scientism’.

History shows you can ‘prove’ almost anything by fiddling with numbers.

It must be understood that not even math escapes the human condition… I know many people will be loosing their lunch over my impertinence… yet with time I hope to explain the many ways math can be corrupted.

When reading about various types of weird ‘inferred postulates’ like Dark Matter, The Big Bang, etc we always find two camps of thought.

Simpletons who think the said phenomena are rock solid facts and proceed to treat them as such in all their forthcoming activities… and others who have the intellectual depth and integrity to admit these cherished theories are full of holes… and proceed with caution in any further speculations that could follow.

It depends on which article you read as to whether or not you are encouraged to accept such phenomena are real … or to remain skeptical.

It is particularly scary when the political class pick up on certain theories… because they suit their political agendas… and begin to compel whole populations into accepting them as indisputable… and then using usurpatious powers proceed to embed them in Laws and institutions… Pouring Tax billions into the pockets of scientists who just so happen to produce politically correct ‘findings’… while critics are deplatformed and thrown out of Seats of learning… and making it nearly a crime to question ‘the official line’.

Science has died.
The Balance has been skewed.
What we are left with is Pure Pseudo science… very much like the Social Darwinism of the Nazis which Sub-humanised the Jews.

What is funny is that so many people naively assume such shocking corruption is not going on today!

The truth is there are many factors that can corrupt science… Money and political agendas being two biggies… and anywhere the State is pouring money into ‘research’… it becomes highly dubious.

Another funny yet erroneous stereotype that was born of the Materialist religion of ‘Scientism’ is the image of Doctors and scientists in white lab coats with thick reading glasses… and expressionless demeanor.
The psychological impact of this upon gullible minds is the impression that scientists are not only way smarter than other mortals… but esp that they embody a ‘Spock-like’ power of Objectivity… that all their utterances are devoid of personal prejudices… all this is designed to get the gullible to trust them.

Their white overcoats serve the very same purpose as the priestly gab of any religious cult!

The truth is the exact opposite.
You would struggle to find in any other area of life a more opinionated, conceited, biased, Vain, Greedy, unprincipled, and obstinate bunch of human beings than you find in science departments!

Pseudo-science are myths dressed up in Scientific Gab/ jargon.

Is it any wonder why there are so many pseudo-scientific ideas that hold sway among the masses???

When false postulates and theories are accepted as fact whole magnificent edifices are constructed upon these corrupt foundations.
Entire lifetimes, and reputations, and industries can be wasted building ‘White Elephants’… and strong vested interests assemble to carry on the lies… because the longer the sham continues… the bigger the mess when it topples… and people fear facing the ugly truth… and paying the price of correction.

The lies become so embedded that it seems like madness to question them…. Cognitive dissonance becomes the norm… an incapacity to acknowledge uncomfortable novel truths.

Progress has always had to battle with entrenched Mass-held delusions. What is funny/sad is so many Moderns only apply this precept in their warped conception that Science has always struggled against religion… a very inaccurate and simplistic apprehension of history… utterly failing to guard themselves against all the other personal bents that can prevent them from grasping new and challenging evidences.
esp their own modern post-Christian quazi-religious bents.

I ask people if they dare to entertain any controversial propositions that are at variance with the mainstream?
For it is a signal of an independent mind to walk it’s own path and have the courage to diverge at certain points from the herd.
The herd has been trained to pour derision and hate upon anyone who steps out of line and does not submit to the ‘orthodoxy’ of their times.

It may amaze people that I am talking about *The scientific community*… not some religious sect.
Understand that the scientific community is as prone to Backwards, erroneous dogma as any other Human endeavor is.

What is essential then is to write a code of ethics of which the scientific method is just one aspect of what entails the correct mental processes that are conducive to the scientific enterprise.

. to guard ourselves from slipping into a mire of our own subjectivity… eg with the interpretation of evidence.

Ultimately all we can do is acknowledge the human factor will always be lurking about… like a madman.

Tim Wikiriwhi
Christian Libertarian.

More from Tim… and others…

SCIENCE: THE NEW MYTHOLOGY.

THE RUSTY CAGE: SCIENTISM.

SUPERSTITION?

ET TU BRUTE? WHAT IS SCIENTISM: WILLIAM LANE CRAIG

THE FOLLY OF SCIENTISM. AUSTIN L. HUGHES

MULTIPLYING ABSURDITIES EQUALS CERTAINTY… THE MATH MAGIC OF MODERN ATHEIST ASTROLOGERS!

DAVID BERLINSKI—ATHEISM AND ITS SCIENTIFIC PRETENSIONS

THE WALLS ARE CLOSING IN ON ATHEISM… NOT THEISM.

THE LUDICROUS CLAIMS OF EVOLUTION! WHY NOT ESP?

The Science is never settled. Science is no escape from the human condition.

Below are some thoughts I threw together for a Social media post.
Not sure how they will weather… lets see!

This has now extended into 2 parts of which this is part 1.

Part 2 is here.

Science is no escape from the human condition… that gospel purported by many…is false.

Though we may increase in mastery over nature…certainty will always escape us… thus science is a pragmatic pursuit, not a source of absolute knowledge.

With every new answer comes new question.
We will always rely on axioms and presuppositions… we cannot escape the need for faith… which underpins what we think we know… even the things we are most sure about….

I am an Engineer by trade having served as an apprentice back in the 80s.
I studied General science and Engineering at high school… two subjects I excelled in given I enjoyed them both, yet to get into the Engineers class meant not being allowed to study ‘physics’ and ‘chemistry’ as two independent classes that were more specialist than general science.

The School must have thought General science was sufficient for engineers! (There is an element of truth to this)

Anyway I have never regretted my decision to learn a trade via ‘Hands on apprenticeship system’… we would spend several months a year at a Technical institute learning theory, the rest was learning on the job. I did a ‘fitting and turning’ apprenticeship which is machine work… lathes mills, etc plus ‘fitting’ which was welding and fabrication, and mechanic stuff. Best of all at you are earning coin and don’t graduate with a massive student debt.

Yet you learn ‘different’ things via an apprenticeship than what you learn when you go to University.
We learn mostly Newtons theories of Physics rather than Einstein’s.
And that does in the end have it’s disadvantages as I will confess to struggling with matters of Relativity and the claims of Quantum Physics… which I must do my best to learn at home by dent of my own desire to learn.

I must content myself at best with Laymen’s understanding.

I do accept that Einstein had a more accurate model for how the universe functions and that the State of the Art requires utilisation of his equations.

This achievement of Einstein to challenge Newton in itself must be one of the most important contentions that must be factored into… and embodied in any ‘philosophy of science’ if you hope to have a valid understanding of what science is… and what it is not.

Newton appeared absolute and unquestionable!
That was ‘the verdict of Science’.
Anyone who questioned him was automatically a crackpot.
Mad Einstein did exactly that… and in so doing exploded the notion that Science is a foundation for absolute truth… absolute knowledge… Newton was overthrown, and cracks are beginning to appear even in Einstein. This should at least rattle the nerves of arrogant ‘know it alls’ who think they have attained God-like certainty and omniscience!

Given we now know how little we know that such attitudes still hold sway says more about Human beings irrationality and prejudice… and incapacity for objectivity. Don’t you think?

On the other hand by grounding myself in swaff and metal filings … and big hammers and avoiding the indoctrinations of ivory tower intellectuals has given me ‘a freedom of thought’… whereby I stand on the outside… looking in at all the whack claims being made by Quantum physics, etc… and intuitively I can see these guys are wallowing in math-madness…

for example their massive claims about Dark matter! To me it is as mythical as the Loch Ness monster! I don’t buy into it…. and sure enough new theories arise that relegate ‘Dark matter’ to the dustbin of vain imagination.
Science is a learning process at best… never mistake wild assertions as actual facts!

For the sort of Engineering I do Newton is still King!
Yet we learn that ‘correlation does not prove causation…’ a very important thing to understand in our age of computer modeling whereby almost any hair-brain idea can be given ‘credence’ by fiddling with numbers and parameters.

I would suggest that Global warming is founded upon such pseudo-scientific modeling that was bespoke made to accommodate Political aspirations…
Michael Mann’s ‘Hockey stick graph’ is today absolutely debunked yet the damage it has done in skewing science has been incalculable.

The science is far from settled… on anything.

Have a nice day!

Tim Wikiriwhi
Christian Libertarian.

The Atheist delusion. David Berlinski

“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”
David Berlinski

“If somebody says something to me particularly stupid, yet they say it with Proper Grammar… Then I immediately assume the following…What Graduate school did you attend?…”
Dennis Prager.
“The Chaotic forces have taken over education…”
Watch this great video (below)

The Great Teacher and Student. Anthony McClean and Anthony Mulder


Anthony McClean, Portia McPhail, Anthony Mulder, Tara Gregory, Huan (Tom) Hsu, Natasha Bray, and Floyd Fernandes drowned in the Mangatepopo Gorge. (Stuff)

Today marks the 10th anniversary of the river tragedy that took the lives of 6 Elim Christian School students and their teacher Anthony McClean.
Such a terrible event, Yet from the first time I herd the story of Anthony’s heroic exploit I have been overwhelmed and affected by a sense of awe at his humanity and sense of Christian duty that he demonstrated on this fateful day, and though 6 others lost their lives this blogpost is my personal tribute to him in particular… as an exemplar of character and the sort of loving soul that every parent desires in a tutor of their children.

When the River surged trapping the group in a dire situation, Anthony was faced with a Great moral Dilemma… abandon his pupils and Save himself… or… strive to save a physically disabled student cerebral palsy sufferer Tom Hsu, 16, by tying him to his own back and to risk his own life for their sake.
Visualizing this in my mind, I am transported in time and space to witnessing this act of heroism first hand…and I am overcome.
His heroism cost him his life… they died together… yet ten years later the example he set still moves and inspires me and thousands of other New Zealanders.
It ranks in the highest order of Noble deeds… Christ-like… who said “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends…” John15vs13.
His action is the equal of any Teacher who has in such moments of fate… given their lives for their students, and I am reminded of such stories we often read about when there is a US school massacre… the teachers who put themselves between the killers and their Pupils… May God Bless and Keep them all.

Read more about Anthony’s exploit here… Teacher tied himself to disabled teen in bid to save him

This is the spirit of Altruism… the voluntary self sacrifice of personal benefits… out of love…for the sake of others.
True Heroism is not about personal glory, and is impossible for the person who puts their own life as the highest value.
This is taking the Vocation of teaching to its Highest end… placing the life of your students ahead of your own.

Read quote and close training session.

Teachers like Anthony McClean demonstrate the *Real virtue* of the vocation… Teaching was never about High wages and Fame… and all about being able to fulfill your personal desire to serve others… The opportunity and privilege to instill wisdom and values in the youth under your care… to empower them to take care of themselves, raise happy and healthy families, and to live great and fulfilling lives.
And the best teachers teach the most important lessons of character… by example… living (and dying) by the values they expound.
Teachers who dont have this quality may be technically smart… yet can never be *Great*… and when any troubles arise… even minor troubles… they will put their own interests ahead of your children.
What parent can have confidence in a Selfish teacher to look after their child, and instill values?

Anthony Mulder was one of the Students who lost his life that day… yet not before performing selfless deeds of heroism!
He positioned himself in the torrent and helped his fellow students to get across.

” Kish Proctor and Sarah Brooks, two of the survivors from the canyoning group, said Ant was an inspiration for his selfless, loving nature and steadfast belief in God.

Fellow Elim youth leader and Pakuranga College student Jessica Hancock described him as a “humble, patient, peaceful, generous and loving guy who has changed so many lives”.

Speaking after the memorial service, Ant’s friends said healing moments had been time spent in his bedroom and talking about the good times they shared with him.

Kish said Ant was voted group leader while at the Sir Edmund Hillary Outdoors Pursuits Centre because he was a seasoned tramper and led by example.

“He stood in the middle of the current and helped all of us across it,” he said.”

Read more here Anthony Mulder – a gentle giant

Let us Remember this Tragic Day… esp the Deeds of these Two Heroes.
Lets us take inspiration from their selfless actions in the Darkest of hours and endeavour to emulate them in our own lives.
And as Christians… we live in the hope of the Gospel.
Tim Wikiriwhi.
Christian Libertarian.

The Objective Reality Of Hell. Subjective Whim vs Belief in Heinous Things: A Dialogue.

I have been wanting to do a Blogpost on Objective Truths vs Subjective whims for a long time, yet like so many super important topics… I have procrastinated out of fear of not doing these subjects justice.
Esp in relation to my Belief in the Objective reality of Hell… despite not liking the doctrine at all… and wishing it were not true.
I esp want to talk about how a keynote of a Subjective whimsical thinker is that they refuse to believe in anything they find repugnant… esp if admitting ‘their’ possibility will have implications for themselves that they do not want to deal with.
Fear and loathing.
They are like the Ostrich who seeks to hide from any scary reality by putting their heads in a hole in the ground.

There are *many unpleasant realities* and any rational Cosmology/ belief system must be strong enough to encompass these dark truths.
‘The Problem of Evil’ ‘Theodicy’ being one of the greatest of all Theological/ philosophical topics that challenges the faith of many in Divine Providence and goodness, and many think the Doctrine of hell is likewise a fatal proof against the Goodness of the Lord God of the Bible.

Read: Car Crash.

Tonight after work I came across the ‘Meme/post’ (At Top) by one Matthew Joseph on a Facebook Group I belong to called ‘Psychedelics and Philosophy’, and as you can see the question Matt put forward perfectly dovetails with these topics, and without saying too much in this introduction… I hope that intelligent readers will be able to follow my rationale as it flows in the dialogue… despite the fact that during the ‘debate’ comments get inserted in.

It is a raw ‘real world’ conversation… not a fabricated dialogue designed by a clever writer to display their philosophical eloquence… its a battle of words between two antagonists… a bible hater vs myself… a King Jame Bible believer.

I will however just make a few quick points before I post the dialogue.
1. From what I have already said above you can see what motive I had for entering on a discussion of the question posed by Matt. It was not as he says… that I was ‘assuming’ some sort of personal attack, but that my initial comment (which is important because I maintain it’s position throughout the whole dialogue and my later comments are all in context of it) was a sincere attempt to draw attention to ‘Why some people believe heinous things’.. and that it is far more dangerous to assume that all heinous things ought to be automatically and subjectively disbelieved.

2. I admit to making some bold assumptions from the get go… as to why Matt may have posted this question… assumptions founded upon years dialogue, study, etc… and from the reaction that swiftly followed my original comment It becomes clear that my assumptions were perfectly correct.
Matt *Is precisely the sort of person I suspected*… yet still it was not my original intention to get into a bun fight… though once the first bun was thrown at me… I was more than ready to retaliate in kind!

3. With these things in mind I hope by the time any reader traverses this dialogue that they will see that Matts final assertion my arguments are all ‘Non sequitur’ is simply another denial of the fact that I was on point the whole time…

My ongoing comments must be taken *In context* of his comments… He fails to appreciate how he himself fills in the sequence of my reasoning… justifies my progressive assumptions, and makes full vindication of my original comment.

Thus I assert it was Matt who started the petty nastiness… Matt immediately responded in a derogatory manner… debasing the conversation by calling me a ‘Jack ass’… hoping to shut me down… not because he could rebut me… but because he did not like my original moot defending belief in the Bible and hell.
I assert that Matt said almost nothing that equates to a rational argument, and that at all points he displayed the Subjectivity of a God hating sinner… a lost soul who does not want to contemplate the possibility of facing Divine judgement and hell, and in fact he has nothing of substance to offer on the topic of belief.
He only wants to believe things that are non-threatening… non-challenging to his modus opperandi… and esp dont lay moral weights upon his back.
Matt is a Hater of The God of the Bible… and thinks Christians are Freaks.

Atheists like to make their own rules.
Even though their world view is ultimately nihilistic… morally sterile and devoid of value they still like to think of themselves as ‘Good people’…and that they are the ‘defenders of truth’, etc.. so they claim to sit on the Lofty Ground and pour righteous indignation down upon the religious.
It’s all Absurd and inconsistent hypocrisy with their own professed beliefs… yet very necessary for their self delusion.

Read: How can a Good God exist when there is so much evil in the world? (part1) Atheist Nihilism.

Matt asserts that I went for his throat from the get go.
Yet still He has given me his permission to include his name and though one of his friends jumps in… he says little of substance and I have left his name in there too.
The whole dialogue is Screen shots… verbatim… Pettiness and all.

I assume only 3 mad people will read it in full… yet I intend to use this conversation in the future debates and discussions.

Now the debate is over, and I dont hold any ill feelings, and it is not my intention to use this blog post in malice against him, and in fact I offer an Olive branch to him and will post him the link to this blogpost and have already invited him to make critisisms and defend himself in the comments.
I hope that he will re-consider my arguments.

I dont want him to go to hell.
I dont want *anyone* to go to hell!
Yet I wont deny its objective reality because it was taught by Christ and is in the Divine Revelation… The King James Bible.

Read: The Rock of Divine Revelation.

One of my most heavy burdens is watching as my friends and family…one by one… enter eternity Rubbishing Christ and assuming Hell and Judgement are not awaiting them.
It breaks my heart when they make it clear that they do not even wish to discuss this topic with me.

That Hell is real is why Christ gave his life on the Cross!
And To prevent people going to hell is not achieved by denying it’s existence… but by preaching the gospel of Gods Grace!
Preaching The Cross.

Read: Christ’s work of Salvation on the Cross… The Great Equaliser.

Matt will not know that I was once an Militant Atheist myself… so I appreciate how *alien* the spiritual truths of the Bible appear to the Natural man… the Materialist.

Read: Death of an Atheist. Follow the evidence.

It has been argued by atheists that Jesus was immoral because he preached about hell, and that to their thinking eternal damnation in torment is too horrific an idea to be expounded by any Good person.
I admit it is a truly horrific proposition and I understand why even many Christians today try to do God a favour by denying the doctrine of hell… saying it is false teaching… bad interpretation, etc.
They want to removed hell because of the obstacle to faith it represents.. and they wish to escape the burden of arguing that God is moral to eternally Damn sinners … that is a hard thing to sell!
, yet I Choose to trust the Bible, and I argue that irrespective of my personal feelings… that *If hell is an objective reality* then I must Trust that God is Righteous in all his judgments, and that it would be immoral for Christ *not to preach about it*… not to warn sinners they were in danger… and it would be immoral for me to go along with the charade that hell does not exist!

Christians who are swayed against the doctrine of hell because of the difficulties it presents are infact involved in a form of Idol making.
They seek to make an Image of God more pleasing to their subjective desires and vain ideas rather than worshiping the God of the Bible… as he has revealed himself to truly be… including his holiness and abhorrence of sin and evil…
Look at all the vile evil in the world!
Look at the wickedness and perversion of humanity!
With one breath Atheist point at Wars and Tyranny… all the suffering of the weak at the hands of the strong, and accuse God of not caring about evil… yet with their next breath they condemn the Doctrine of Divine judgement!
They say The God of the Bible is outrageously Jealous and angry and that his judgments are too harsh!
Am I the only one who sees the contradiction and hypocrisy of the infidels?

Richard Dawkins pandered to the seething rage of millions of Atheists against God and his judgement, and instead of boldly standing on the scriptures and counter-striking with the Doctrine of the Love, Grace, and mercy of God… many Christians Retreated in the face of such an onslaught… just as they have shamefully done on so many issues vital issues like accepting ‘Evolution’… like accepting that Rationalist position on the Scriptures as merely a human construct full of Myths, and Superstitions.
And when they have removed Hell from their beliefs… they also have removed the greatest moral burden and impetus to preach the Gospel of Salvation to the lost!

God’s Judgement is evidence of the *Moral weight* and *Value* and Meaning he places upon Human life and action.
God takes our existence and activities very seriously!

God has managed to show his mighty wisdom and Both Judge and show mercy!
Remember that God himself is not willing that any should perish, and that he commended his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners , Christ died for us.
Those that end up in Damnation *choose their fate*… by rejecting Christ and the mercy of God.

So here it is…. “Let he that hath an ear to hear… let them hear”.
Tim Wikiriwhi
Christian Libertarian.

Update: After posting the link to this post to Matt and his friends, he responded with more vitriol and personal insults displaying he is completely incapable of being rational on this topic.
And his friends weighed in too and it is telling that in more that 70 comments that were made… at no point did any of them actually address the content of my argument… and focused on pouring out guile on me personally.
They even wheel in some guy they think is a Philosophical ‘Heavy weight’… yet he proceeds to act as ‘amateur hour’ as the rest!
‘Tim is a Maniac’
‘Tim’s post is too long’
‘Tims writing is shit’… etc etc.
These are the whole tenor of my detractors ‘arguments’ against me… quite pathetic… very telling about their personal spiritual condition.
Of course ‘indifferent’ dialogues of noble and pure thinkers are Myth.
Fantasies invented by philosophers… In the real world most contentious Dialogues are full of ugliness, and so this dialogue fits in well with ‘Keeping it real’.

Anyway here is the discussion … and I will have to add some more of the later comments… I do know it’s ‘quite long’ in today’s short ‘attention span’ culture, yet I think the subject is worth taking time to ponder.













When the Accuser comes calling…Trust in the Lord’s Good Character…Trust in his word. (Good God/Evil world part 7)

This subject is in the very first rank of importance.
In writing this I hope to be able to communicate with both Believers and Unbelievers… which is difficult because the two extremes favour different approaches… one tends to run away when bible verses are deployed… assuming they are about to subjected to a nutty Bible bashing, yet the other tends to think that unless a post has a bible verse every second line that the post is some sort of Satanic plot!
Yet as has become my style, I will speak in plain ‘Natural’ terms as much as possible yet will stitch in scripture as I deem appropriate.
I believe this topic has value both as a means by which both Unbelievers and believers may gain important insights.

The whole theme is very much one of the most essential aspects of the proper relationship of any thoughtful person to the Almighty.

I will talk about how to deal with ‘struggles and issues’ in believing in Gods good character in due course, yet first I must present the basics of why Faith in his good character is essential.

There are many many vitally important reasons why it is *Faith* that puts us in the right relationship with God, and why he has made it the key to our relationship with himself.
One of the most interesting.. and telling facts is that *Faith in Gods Good Character* has always been… and always will be essential… even after/when we are in his very presence and have walked and talked with him simply because of our Limited capacity for knowledge… and his Infinite Divinity.
There will never be a time when we have full understanding of all things about the Almighty, and thus even though we may have a massive understanding… and countless proofs of his Good character… there will always exist a gap between what we know of him… and his full Glory… and thus Faith will always be needed to bridge this gap.

Then for the well versed and philosophically minded it is also understood that ultimately… all our knowledge… even scientific knowledge rests upon unproven assumptions that are accepted by faith!
At the very heart of the History of the Philosophy of science was the foundational ‘articles of faith’ that came directly from monotheism and is why Theists were responsible for the birth of modern science and why they occupy the Chief seats and hold the chief honours for virtually every branch of modern science… as the Founders.
Primarily the impetus to scientific discovery and secular explanations was born of the belief in a single Creator of everything who made the universe and ordered it according to Divine plans that may be rationally understood, and that the universe functions via Fixed Divinely established Laws… that Man may investigate and understand… because these laws are themselves rational and a testament to the truth and rationality of God Almighty.
Facts like this are not open to debate as they stand as Empirical reality… facts of the history of the philosophy of science… rather than on mere hypothetical intellectual ideology and bias.
One of the greatest delusions people like Hitchens, Dawkins, or Tyson have foisted onto the gullible atheist sheeple is the notion that the advance of Science has been synonymous with the advance of atheism… and the discrediting of faith in the Bible.

So far-be-it from being true that Christian faith… is as Atheists present the idea … as being a ploy to suck in the gullible to abdicate their minds and blindly swallow the delusions of religion… these atheists are displaying an abject ignorance of the dynamics and logic that underpins the Christian call to faith.
That *some False Prophets and priests may plot that way is not a justification to say *All Faith is Irrational and for fools*… and in fact to be an Atheist requires a heck of a lot of faith!
Atheists like Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris display both rank ignorance and patent dishonesty when they fail to acknowledge the debt science owes to Theistic cosmology.. yet of course their entire arguments fall over if they were to admit the truth!
They prefer to sell books like ‘The God delusion’… ‘God is not Great…how religion poisons everything’ etc etc.
And millions of chumps who hunger for any reason not to believe the bible swallow their Atheist delusions by the ship load.
Most of these people have blinders over their eyes and hands over their ears… they cannot be reached via reason… and in fact Spiritual truths are completely alien to them.
This being so any reader who has even reached this paragraph in my post and is honestly contemplating what I am saying… has hope!… as their hearts are not as hard as impregnable stone.. and they are more open to Objective discourse.

The Bible’s call to faith is not only Philosophically profound, it is also beautifully exemplified in its explanations as to how and why the world is the way it is…warts and all.

That Faith has always been… and always will be essential is shown to be true by the Fall of Lucifer… who was not like us in that we have never seen God…. He not only existed, came and went from the very presence of God… he also held the most exalted place in the hierarchy God had established In Heaven… and on the original Pre-Adamite Earth.
Lucifer had it all…. except the worship that was due to God alone.
It was the dark seed of Pride in Lucifer that caused him to feel he was worthy of greater honor than what he received that caused him to hate God… ie he began to question the goodness of God’s character.

Satan Seethed with envy… and was overcome with a delusion that God was treating him unjustly.

And Lucifer began to tell them (The Angels) lies.. and so under the weight of his Cunning…it was a naive lack of faith that allowed him to deceive many of the Angels into rebellion against God… and as Satan later on… also deceive Adam and Eve into disbelieving Gods word.
… yet I will mitigate the fall of the angels and of Adam and Eve in this one sense… ‘They were like Children in their innocence’… apart from the wiles of The Devil… the father of Lies…these matters might never have entered into their minds before Lucifer sowed his own mis-trust in the goodness of God’s character into their hearts… like a disease.
Yet still had they maintained faith in the goodness of God, Satan would never have been able to cause them to sin….

That Trust in God’s Good character and his right to be Lawgiver and Judge is clearly seen in the test and singular law that God gave to Adam with respect to the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
Adam (and Eve) were free to enjoy the fruits of the Garden except the one in the midst which God deemed to be prohibited… and it is a prima facie demonstration of how Satan works.

Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

From the above we see that Satan was able to sow distrust in Eve about God’s Good character by suggesting God was deceitfully withholding good things from them and had lied to them!
Satan said “Ye shall not surely die…” in direct contradiction to Gods word… and instead of trusting in God Good character and right to make binding laws upon them… she was decieved by this ruse… and fell into sin.

^ in those few words we find why Faith between Conscious Moral Free agents and our Creator is essential… even when unlike today… Humans and Angels dont have to have faith in God’s existence because they experienced him empirically!
They walked at talked with him!

In those few words we also find the key modus opperandi of Satan!
If he can get you to question the Good character of God Almighty and get you to think that God’s word cannot be trusted… Satan has you exactly where he wants you… and in such a condition of accusation against God… Against his word… and against his right to be Moral Lawgiver and Judge… it is impossible for you to please God!
You have switched rolls!
You now claim to be the Judge of the Almighty!
You now think *you can decide* whether or not you will be subject to his Laws and Authority!
You doubt the truthfulness of his word.

And that Satan is now ‘the God of this fallen world’ is demonstrated every day by the perverse Global phenomena of Mankind in their arrogance asserting that The Lord is Unjust… that his judgments are unfair and tyrannical… and that Mankind ought to be allowed to write their own rules… if any!
And there is plenty of Material for the children of Satan to continue to employ to ensure the next generations perpetually believe the God of the bible is a moral monster!
And it is Godless Humanity that have turned this world into a cesspool of filth and violence!
The Height of Human vanity, depravity, and delusion knows no bounds!

I will add links to this post that will some degree expand on many of the monumental points that I have touched upon above only briefly, yet without making this post extremely long I wish to tie in all this with some personal dilemmas I myself wrestle with… and how … knowing the dynamics of faith … I choose to deal with them.

The philosophical and explanatory power of the Book of Genesis is so Gigantic as to be a fingerprint of divine truth!
When contemplated with a sober mind it is not surprising that this text has remained one of the Greatest philosophical/theistic texts of all time!
Not only does it enunciate with clarity the origin of the Universe and humanity, but of equal importance it explains one of the great challenges to faith in the goodness of God’s character… the existence of Evil… and what we today describe as ‘Natural calamities’.

These are things that Satan, and his children constantly use as wedges… as darts … to fire at the innocent and unlearned… and the foolish and rebellious… to undermine any faith they might entertain that God is Good and just.
These accusations require their own rebuttals and The bible contains sufficient facts and demonstrations That God is Holy, Just, and Loving, etc… none the less it cannot be denied that there are things not only in reality but especially within the scriptures that even bible believers like myself *Dont like*… and these test my faith… yet I do not do what so many so-called Christians do… and that is deny the validity of these scriptures… and come with sophisticated excuses why they should not be believed!
The last century saw a massive falling away from bible believing faith… a sad and unnecessary retreat in the face a relentless rationalist onslaught.
Many Christians were deceived into believing the theory of evolution was a scientific fact that conclusively disproved the story of Adam and Eve.
Many were fooled by sophisticated arguments that the God of the Old testament was Cruel and unjust… these people succumbed to the wiles of the devil and instead of clinging to the scriptures and trusting in Gods Goodness and supreme Justice… they caved in and abandoned the very core of their faith.
Had they held fast to their faith… they would not have had to endure long before the evidence would mount up that evolution was a false hypothesis, and that the very complexity of the cell and DNA discovered by the advance of genetics would utterly vindicate the story of Adam and Eve and of Intelligent design. (though of course atheists still refuse to abandon their superstitions and sadly many Christians also have not returned to faith in the book of Genesis as they in fact still have not accepted that a Good God could judge the world by flood)

Now I would never suggest that the question of the existence of Evil and of Natural calamities should never be contemplated!
I believe such questions to be very important… yet we must take extreme care with how we walk on this treacherous soil!
There are great snares and pitfalls that await the stumbling fool.
Satan appears as an Angel of Light!
He and his minions will always present pseudo-moral arguments in accusation of Gods word and contend that believers are guilty of accepting atrocities.
Such as is common with Rationalists who assert the story of Noah’s flood is not only a myth… but also as being a clear demonstration that the God of the bible if he were real… would be a monster!
And falling for these sorts of vacuous… yet powerful delusions has caused untold millions to abandon faith in the Book of Genesis… the very foundation-stone of Gods word!
And I will not deny that the story of the Flood is chilling to the bone!
I will not deny that it would be very satisfying to think that this story is just a fable invented via superstitious and manipulative Priest-craft… and to thereby self-vindicate simply writing the whole business off with the waive of the hand… and then to mock those who cling to these scriptures as Cretins.
And thus thinking we have strong enough science… and moral arguments to subdue *any reasonable debate* We can proudly declare ourselves liberated from Tyranny and myth!
And there is no shortage of Rationalist material… even from so-called ‘Christians’ who argue the Book of genesis is not to be trusted… that it is just allegorical, etc… even though that is not how Jesus or Paul our Apostle saw the Book.
They were Bible believers!
They Knew God was Holy, and just in his judgement, and that his word is trustworthy!
Abraham lived Post Noahs flood… there was probably plenty of empirical evidence for the Flood all about him and when God called him to leave Ur and go to a land in which he would show him… and that God would bless him and make his children innumerable… Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness… saith Paul

Yet still!
Knowing all these things does not fully take away many things that I struggle with… things that I still dont like… things I know are true… yet wish were not.
Yet I accept that Reality and Moral truth are not Subject to my will, and that there are many Objective truths and realities that do not require my assent.
I know that any person who cannot accept the possibility of such objective realities … and still not trust in the Good character of God … but deem anything they dont like as proof that Either The God of the bible does not exist… or that if he does… then he is Not loving and good… to be the height of vanity and self delusion!
These people are the very definition of subjectivists … the very height of Ego-mania… in that they think they… in their ignorance and folly… can stand in judgement of the Almighty!
They have fallen into Satan’s trap.
And the greatest proof of this can be easily found when you investigate what ground it is upon which they base their own moral authority!
Any cursory examination of their moral foundations reveals their feet firmly ensnared in a swamp!
Ie They have no higher moral ground upon which they can justly claim to stand in moral Judgement of the character of God!

And when I read the scriptures I find that most.. if not all the objective realities and Biblical truths that I dont like are also things that God himself has expressed great sadness… such as the Righteous judgement of the lost in eternal torment… and in particular of many of my own friends and family whom I love and sympathize with!
and it is when contemplating this that I begin to understand the terrible burden that is God’s alone to bear.
Who among us would desire to Judge the deeds of humanity with Absolute justice?
None of us are even worthy to throw a stone at an adulterer.
Such Judgments can only be done without hypocrisy by an absolutely Holy Judge.
Yet still who would deny that Evil cannot be allowed to go unpunished?
Indeed another of the great deceptions of Satan and his minions has been the accusation that God seems to allow so much wickedness to prevail… and go unpunished.
Here we expose another gigantic hypocrisy and contradiction in the Atheists contentions against The Lord.
With One hand they curse him for letting the destruction and misery upon the innocent of Sin go unpunished, yet on the other they Curse God for executing Judgement and justice upon the wicked!

Though I would dearly love to believe in the Heresy of *Universal salvation* …. or that the Damned will simply be annihilated… etc etc… I know that this is not the true doctrine of the scriptures… and it is out of the knowledge that Judgement is coming for the lost… for their wickedness… esp the wickedness of rejecting Christ’s sacrifice on the cross… that I busy myself with trying to share the Gospel of the grace of God, and attempt to win souls to faith in the trustworthiness of the Bible as a Divinely inspired and preserved Revelation from God to us.
This entire post has been written in the hope that even a few souls might grasp the truth… and share it with their friends, neighbors, and loved ones.
I am painfully aware that I am a very unworthy vessel of these truths… and that many of my own character faults and evils do not reflect well on Christ or the Gospel… nonetheless I dare not remain silent… my time is short… and my burden is heavy with Fear for the lost… esp for My Friends, neighbors, and loved ones.
I also have no doubt that some of my interpretations and assumptions are still cloaked in ignorance… and I look forward to the day that God himself dispels many of my fears with his light.
Even though I know the gospel truth… That Christ has taken away my sins upon his cross…I still fear my own evils and worry about standing before the Holy and Almighty God… the righteous Judge of the wicked!
All I can do is trust in the gospel truth… and rest in my faith in Gods Mercy and grace is sufficient for a wretch like me!

When I am confronted by challenging moral criticisms or supposed scientific ‘facts’ that are presented as ‘proof’ the Bible is in error for which i have no immediate counter-argument, I have learned to rest in my faith and to search out an answer… and in the 30+ years that I have been a Bible believe *Never* has any such challenge ever proven to undo my rational belief in the scriptures.
Most Often it is not long before the supposed ‘Evidence’ against the Bible is exposed as vacuous… sometimes it may take years before I discover the answer and yet sometimes the criticism is found to be valid yet in these cases they expose an error in my own thinking… and actually help me to discover greater truths that were there all along in the Bible… yet may have been buried under some false doctrine I had picked up along the way!
It is always wonderful when I learn new, and deeper truths as they tend to increase the harmony of the scriptures and dissolve cloudy areas that needed exposing to the light of truth.
So it is that the Christian and Bible believer has nothing to fear from giving skeptical arguments a fair hearing.
For me this has been an ongoing process that has strengthened my trust in the scriptures and made me wiser.


^Not anonymous! Its Proverbs 3vs5,6!
That is in essence the Ultimate position of Faith for the humble soul who knows the limits of his own wisdom yet understands the Truth… that the bible is to be believed… for valid reasons.

I know that I dont know everything, and that I must trust in God in respect to my struggles… and to hold tight to his word no matter what storms of controversy I must face.
I do know God Almighty is Holy, Just, Loving, and good, and that as God he must judge sin… and yet out of love has provided a way for the humble who admit their own sin to be forgiven and saved… by pure grace.
“For God commendeth his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners…. Christ died for us”
“And whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”.

“Faith is the power of an optimistic possibility thinker whereas Doubt is the power of a pessimistic impossibility thinker”
Robert H Sheuller.

The Greatness of the Bible in its explanatory and Value instilling powers is truly Mind-blowing!
Esp when compared to the inescapable nihilism which is what atheism offers!
Faith must overcome skepticism.
Compassion must be stronger than Hatred.
Hope must be greater than despair.

Trust in Gods Word and Good character must overcome the wiles of the Devil.

We have Jesus Christ…and the Gospel of the grace of Grace of God.

Tim Wikiriwhi
Christian Libertarian.
King James Bible believer.
Dispensationalist.

More from Tim….

The Rock of Divine Revelation.

Death of an Atheist. Follow the evidence.

Life and Death. Hope and Happiness. A Tribute to Rev John Steele Clark.

How can a Good God exist when there is so much evil in the world? (part1) Atheist Nihilism.

How can a Good God exist when there is so much evil in the world? (part 2) The Thirst for Blood.

Horror stories. How can a Good God exist when there is so much Evil in the world? (Part 3)

How can a Good God exist when there is so much Evil in the world? (Part 4) Interlude.

Seether: Know Thyself. How can a Good God exist when there is so much evil in the world? Part 5.

‘Good Atheists’ and the seriousness of sin. Good God/Evil world. 6

Hell is for the Self Righteous, Heaven is for Sinners.

The Gospel of God’s Grace.

The hope which is In Christ. Terrible grief shall be turned into great joy!

Car Crash.

We are not Robots Ayn Rand. We are Moral Agents.

Monism: Evolutionary Psychology and the Death of Morality, Reason and Freewill.

The Rusty Cage: Scientism.

Defunct / Archaic Western Dogma blindly insists : ‘Whatever does not fit the Naturalistic Materialist Paradigm is Illusory’. Entity Attacks

The Lies of Atheist Pseudo Science.

Pasteur’s Law, Creation Science vs Nose Bone Atheism.

Biomimicry… Plagiarizing God’s designs.

Sick Puppies.

Thorns in the Flesh.

Rapturous Amazement! The Advance of Science Converts The High Priest of Atheism to Deism. A Flew.

The Walls are closing in on Atheism… not Theism.

Faith, Science, and Reason. The Pomposity of Atheism.

Materialism renders Man Nought. Meaning-less, Value-less, Right-less
Dispensational Truth. 2Timothy2vs15, Ephesians 3vs1-9

Willful Ignorance and the Limits of human reason (without Divine Revelation.)

Willful Ignorance and the Limits of human reason (without Divine Revelation.)

11409306-the-creation-of-adam

Today I want to make my rebuttal of a friends defense for Larkin Rose’s expressed position on God/ Deism.
Larken Rose Recognizes the fingerprint of Intelligence within the incredible design of living things yet appears ambivalent towards any further thought or discussion about the ramifications of this Revelation.
He reminds me of the late A Flew… the once High priest of Atheism who in the face of the discoveries of Modern science esp the complexity of living things abandoned his Atheism for belief in Intelligent design… yet never made the full traverse to Bible believing Faith in THE LORD.
Flew was an honest thinker yet ran out of Time…whereas Larken Rose still has time to discover the truth… yet his attitude appears to me to be that of a Man who does not really want to go down that road…and I question his motives.

I argue why Deism may once have been forgivable/ understandable in the distant past, yet is inexcusable today, and that now Reason and Logic are on the side of the Theist.
While both entail the belief in a Creator God, what distinguishes Deism from Theism is that Deism rejects Divine interventions in the affairs of Men… No Miracles to circumvent the laws of Nature… and esp No Divine special Revelations to mankind.
It will be necessary for me to skip over large portions of history and related material for the sake of brevity such as the Deism of the 18th century.
(I will have to do a separate Blog post on these important aspects of this topic at some later date, and insert a link to it here)

Watch Larken Rose Here…

*********
Ten or more years ago I was asked to debate Hamilton based Atheists for the existence of the Christian God.
One of my opponents was Garry Mallett from Act.
Now The only reason I have mentioned this debate is because the 2nd part of my argument was the logical assumption that *If there is in fact a God (in the Full context of the word) and that he made us human beings…as Rational, conscious beings… that it would be a reasonable assumption to think that surely he would communicate with us some how… who he is… why he made us…etc rather than just leaving us Ignorant about such things.

That was my premise for why it is rational to at least consider the possibility that the Bible’s claim to be the Divine Revelation from the Creator of the Universe to be a plausible possibility at least… and that the honest thinking person having first concluded that the Universe and Living things are best understood as the products of intelligent design… that following upon that, that The Bible answers the questions that naturally flow on…. The *Who* is this Great designer of the Universe… and what message does he have for us… his Conscious Rational Moral Free Agent Creations… and most importantly… that such a Revelation is precisely what the rational mind would expect from the God who is there… rather than silence.

This is an argument that places Theism as superior to mere Deism and in fact renders belief in Deism today to be a cop out…poor reasoning at best… mostly willful ignorance.

Deism and Theism both draw upon what has been described as ‘Natural religion’… Ideas about God derived from looking at Nature… looking at what has been described as ‘The Book of God’s works’.
Yet Theism makes an additional claim that we have a second Book that we may also gain direct and infallible knowledge about God.. The Book of his actual words.

Deism/ Natural Religion is great up to certain point, yet severely limited as it can never tell us Human beings *who God is*… only that he is there… and that he is super intelligent and super powerful, and that there is some sort of Objective moral law which We Human beings ought to at least try and live by… that gives our Moral sence some legitimate foundation and purpose… rather than simply being some sort of illusion… mere sentiment… mere feelings.
An Idea such as ‘Kharma’, or ‘Reaping what you sow’… These are the sorts of ideas human beings have arrived at via contemplating nature… ‘Do unto others as you would have done unto you’ … ‘Be Good’… we know that’Theft is evil’…because we hate it when someone steals from us… so dont steal from others… yet still none of this has anything higher than our own opinion to rest upon… or the opinion of ‘wise others’… and is therefore not impervious to arguments of evil men that assert that all such moralizations are vacuous.
Dark minds may posit the question… Maybe the Deity is Malevolent?
Do not Floods and Earthquakes signal that our creator is far from a caring God! ????
Is the only Moral Rule …contrary to what the wowzers would have us believe…that the Strong may subject the weak?
Are they trying to subject the strong to whiles of the weak?
What the heck is really going on?
Deism cant definitively answer this… yet it gives those whom cling to it a certain self-justification for not being Nihilistic… for claiming they are Moral and good. (something that is necessary because of what the bible describes as our innate knowledge/ consciousness of Good and evil)

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:…”
St Paul. Romans 1:20.

Yet Deism says *Nobody can claim to really know*.

Now I love many of the Great heathen thinkers of classical times, whom both believed a God exists, and that Humanity should be moral, and because of the times and places in which *they lived* I accept that they really had taken ‘Natural religion’ to its highest forms and that they had no ‘Rungs upon which they could possibly ascend higher and closer to God’, and that they were Good, wise, Moral men…In the context of how good any man might be under such circumstances. (Separated/ aliens from Israel, mostly living before the advent of Christ)
It is at this plateau that many of the Great Heathen moral thinkers had arrived.
The Stoic Marcus Aurelius is supposed to have said…

marcus-aurelius-live-a-good-life

Though Aurelius lived post-Christ and had ‘herd’ about the Christians and held negative opinions about them, I am not sure to what degree he had any real first hand communications with them, or any familiarity with the Old testament/ Book of Genesis, thus I tend to consider his situation as very similar to that of the *Pre-Christ* Gentile thinkers… Aliens from the Divine revelation.
He was a very interesting thinker…God will judge him.
Here is an interesting link to this Topic

Now As a Christian Theist who believes the Bible, I know there are Mountains of the most vital truths missing from this Natural/Deistic Faith position because I have the Divine Revelation… The Holy inspired and preserved words of God Almighty himself esp the Facts That Humanity is under a curse because of our Sin, and that our Sin separates us from God and puts us in danger of His Judgement and Damnation.
*It is possible*… because it is so obvious… without the aid of scripture to apprehend by the power of reason alone Humanities fallen/ sinful condition… our wickedness… our depravity… our Cruelty…. and perhaps from this a rationale may be conceived of the need to somehow appease the anger of the God(s)… for justice sake… all sorts of weird Ideas have been proposed… *Yet via reason it would be impossible to conceive of the doctrine of Christs virgin birth, and substitutional atonement for our sins, and resurrection*…from nature alone.
Indeed many Naturally minded people find these Doctrines repugnant… which leads to my main contentions for this blog about Deists living today in western civilization… and their willful ignorance/ rejection of the Divine Revelation… the Bible in which all these doctrines are laid out in the most Logical fashion from the very beginning in Genesis.

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As I have said Deism is severely handicapped to what degree it can reveal the nature of God to us… limited in its certainty of moral precepts, etc, none the less *Today*…far from these limits as being considered by trendy thinkers as pitfalls… these people actually *enjoy* them!
Most of these are people *Today* … follow a trend that became fashionable from the end of the Great reformation who… for various reasons…good or bad… *hate organised religion* (which tends to be where Theistic claims of having ‘Divine revelation’ are most prevalent) … they also enjoy what they see as ‘the Freedom to do as they please… the only moral restraints being their own conscience… and esp that Deism can make no emphatic claims of Divine Judgement for moral failures… it cant even emphatically state the validity of any Human Judgement derived from Nature.
They will say that ‘Reason’ is the only Authority they will subject themselves to, and as they have reached to limits of Reason… they cannot be subject to any higher Moral authority or law.

Philosophers love to quote Hume … “you cant get an ‘Ought from an Is”.
Its Funny though that ordinary people seem to be able to do just that without much trouble appealing to sentiment… they are not moved by arguments that say we can have no confidence in these… in fact to my thinking …the rational approach to this mystery of consciousness to the ideas of Good and evil is not to say ‘We cant ever know’… but instead to set out *in faith* on a Pilgrimage to discover some means by which our sentiments can find Objective validation… It is a quest of discovery for the Divine revelation from the Intelligent Creator whose existence is testified to by his Natural handiwork.
And It is an Irony that in a work by the great skeptic himself David Hume called ‘Dialogues concerning Natural religion’ in which there is a debate about the existence of God, in which Hume deploys his skeptical arguments in the person of ‘Philo’, yet stunningly… in the final analysis his Book ends by giving the victory to the Theist ‘Cleanthes’!

My contention at the Debate was that not only did the Deity Communicate his existence and expectations of Humanity via Prophets and the written word… He intervened into Human affairs in the Most personal manor…. He visited us… and Walked among us… God was manifest in the flesh.

jesus-christ-600x407
“Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:…”

Now when you add up all the components I have briefly discussed above you ought to be able to grasp why it is that I myself am a Theist… a Bible believer… That the fact that we westerners have easy access to the King James Bible and the book of Genesis therein, that willfully seeking to remain ignorant of the Divine revelation is inexcusable… and why it is that I have a pet dislike for modern Deism… esp its corruption/heresy of what I call Christian Deism which I see as a pathetic retreat from true Christian Theistic faith…caused by a weakness in faith and Bad reasoning… in the face of Atheist sophistry. (Topic for another Post)
I actually struggle to contain my contempt!
I need to take 5… and chill… and remember that it is only by Gods grace that I myself am a Christian at all.
I need to remember *How alien* I once was… How utterly incapable of apprehending the existence of God let alone the truthfulness of the Bible!

It is with all this in mind that I decided to keep calm and write this post..
Recently A friend of mine tried to justify the Deism of one of his Favorite thinkers Larkin Rose, which I had critisised as being pathetic… because he refused to make the most basic inference that Intelligent design demands *GOD* and that from this obvious conclusion… if he was an honest thinker… would demand he then begin a personal pilgrimage to discover *Who* this Grand designer is.

My friend began to repair to the arguments *of Classical Deism* and the limits that Logic faced in that direction… as if that excuse… which of course appears quite valid when looking back to heathen lands… and times before Christ… aliens to the Divine Revelation, Yet This blogpost is my express rebuttal to that argument when applied to modern thinkers like Larkin.
It is invalid for Thinkers today to simply rest on that ancient Plateau… because they live post Christ and have access to the Bible and history.
This makes them fully culpable for rejecting Jesus Christ.
Socrates on the other hand was not privy to the Bible… and I even conjecture that he would have become a Christian had he been given the opportunity… so many of his conclusions about Divine things being in perfect harmony with the scriptures… that he never had opportunity to read.
I say that If Socrates would have considered the Gargantuan explanatory power for the first chapters in the book of Genesis…plus all the rest… the Biblical explanation for the existence of Evil…The explanation of why God has separated himself from mankind… why we die… why there are Natural disasters, etc etc that it is very possible that he would have realised that this divine revelation gives a great logical basis for Biblical theistic faith when one applies it to the world about him.
That in fact the Bible *Is the Revelation* of the Intelligent designer of everything…his message to us his creatures… esp telling us *Who he is*… and what is *Really* going on.

which-bible-is-gods-word-17-638

So I question why it is that though Larken Rose sees through the delusion of atheistic evolution, he still is apathetic towards discovering *Who God is* and challenge him to Read the King James Bible… to really contemplate it’s message… and that in doing so he would no longer be in a position to argue that Logic ends at the plateau of Natural religion.
The Bible is a logical extension from the Plateau at the top of the Mountain… upwards out of the stratosphere all the way… a direct line of communication to the Deity… a logical vindication of Bible believing christian Theism.
Of course Satan and his minions have been attacking the Bible, and via sophistry undermining faith in its veracity as The Bible is the Ultimate Fortress of God for the believer. It is the Ultimate Lighthouse in the storm of life Shining its beams upon the treacherous Rocks of peril, and a Guide of Safe passage… salvation to every soul who sees its light and navigates into the Harbour of God’s love and Grace.
Satan is the enemy Of God and Men’s souls…The Father of Lies… it was by cunning craftiness that he was able to deceive Eve, and get her to disbelieve Gods word and to Eat of the forbidden fruit, and he has been at this game the whole time… Deceiving… yet the word of God remains like a Rock

Happy Resurrection Day!
Tim Wikiriwhi.
Protestant, 1611 King James Bible believer, Dispensationalist, Christian Libertarian.

The last paragraphs of Humes Dialouges concerning Natural religion…

If the whole of Natural Theology, as some people seem to maintain, resolves itself into one simple, though somewhat ambiguous, at least undefined proposition, That the cause or causes of order in the universe probably bear some remote analogy to human intelligence: If this proposition be not capable of extension, variation, or more particular explication: If it affords no inference that affects human life, or can be the source of any action or forbearance: And if the analogy, imperfect as it is, can be carried no farther than to the human intelligence; and cannot be transferred, with any appearance of probability, to the other qualities of the mind: If this really be the case, what can the most inquisitive, contemplative, and religious man do more than give a plain, philosophical assent to the proposition, as often as it occurs; and believe that the arguments, on which it is established, exceed the objections, which lie against it? Some astonishment indeed will naturally arise from the greatness of the object: Some melancholy from its obscurity: Some contempt of human reason, that it can give no solution more satisfactory with regard to so extraordinary and magnificent a question. But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural sentiment, which a well-disposed mind will feel on this occasion, is a longing desire and expectation, that heaven would be pleased to dissipate, at least alleviate this profound ignorance, by affording some more particular revelation to mankind, and making discoveries of the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith. A person, seasoned with a just sense of the imperfections of natural reason, will fly to revealed truth with the greatest avidity: While the haughty Dogmatist, persuaded, that he can erect a complete system of Theology by the mere help of philosophy,
KS 228
disdains any farther aid, and rejects this adventitious instructor. To be a philosophical Sceptic is, in a man of letters, the first and most essential step towards being a sound, believing Christian; a proposition, which I would willingly recommend to the attention of Pamphilus: And I hope Cleanthes will forgive me for interposing so far in the education and instruction of his pupil.
D 12.34
Cleanthes and Philo pursued not this conversation much farther; and as nothing ever made greater impression on me, than all the reasonings of that day; so, I confess, that, upon a serious review of the whole, I cannot but think, that Philo’s principles are more probable than Demea’s; but that those of Cleanthes approach still nearer to the truth.

Read the whole Dialogue here (It is fabulous! 🙂 )

More from Tim…. The Rock of Divine Revelation.

Death of an Atheist. Follow the evidence.

Rapturous Amazement! The Advance of Science Converts The High Priest of Atheism to Deism. A Flew.

Car Crash.

How can a Good God exist when there is so much evil in the world? (part1) Atheist Nihilism.

Christ’s work of Salvation on the Cross… The Great Equaliser.

Dispensational Truth. 2Timothy2vs15, Ephesians 3vs1-9

The Irony. Why I follow St Paul… Not Jesus.