“Hate Speech Laws and Blasphemous Libel: A Tale of Hypocrisy.
A few months ago, the Honourable Andrew Little quite rightly proposed a bill that eventually removed the last blasphemy law (s 123 of the Crimes Act 1961) from our statute books.
Before its removal, the effect of s 123 was to make it an offence to vilify or degrade Christianity with an intent to cause serious offence or by abusing sacred objects or beliefs (Bowman v Secular Society Ltd).
Section 123(3) went on to specify: “It is not an offence against this section to express in good faith and in decent language, or to attempt to establish by arguments used in good faith and conveyed in decent language, any opinion whatever on any religious subject”.
Thus the cumulative effect of s 123 was to make it an offence to vilify or degrade Christianity either in bad faith, or using indecent language.
At any rate, the repeal of s 123 was premised on concerns about the right to free expression. The necessary implication being that speech is *protected* notwithstanding that it is expressed in bad faith or indecent language, and vilifies Christianity.
If free speech grounds a right to vilify Christianity in bad faith or using indecent language, there is similarly a right to vilify any other religion in bad faith or using indecent language.
And yet I’m told that the latter would be legally actionable hate speech…”
The pace with which the current Ardern government is moving towards a police state, and the destruction of freedom is truly frightening!
And there seems to be nobody in parliament standing up in opposition to any of it!
The National Party have been hypnotized by the Ardern Cult of Personality… they pander to her every whim!
How the hell they ever expect this sort of Kowtowing to the Liberal agenda will help them get elected into power again is a mystery.
The Lefty infested New Zealand Press are hard at work lobbying for New Hate speech legislation and has acted like a Lynch mob towards Austrailian sports star Israel Folou quoting the Bible on his own social media page. and the condemnation he has received from our New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern herself, with the press goading her… begging her … to label what he said hate speech…here ‘Jacinda Ardern fires back at Israel Folau and social media comments’… while she was restrained by current legal definitions to label what he said as being a crime, she said she called it ‘Damaging’, yet we also know that her government is determined to push through New ‘hate speech’ legislation… with the same callous disregard for the rights of New Zealanders and due process they displayed with the latest Firearms prohibitions, and when you see what her minion Andrew Little thinks constitutes ‘hate speech’ if New Zealanders are not alarmed, and rise up against this abuse of power they truly deserve the expression of being a bunch of Sheep!
Unless new Zealanders wake up and stand against this sort of agenda driven anti-religious liberty… anti Free speech propaganda… Our country is doomed, and our children will not be taught anything other than what the government wants them to learn… and what they are allowed to believe… and think.
What has been circulated in the NZ media about Folou’s ‘Homophobia’ has been absolutely dishonest!
For the record… I’m too a Christian, I do not hate homosexuals, yet I reserve the right to peacefully and freely preach about my Religion and quote the Bible… precisely as I have done for the last 34 years, and no Law from Parliament will stop me from doing this… They will have to arrest me to stop me!
This is precisely what the Right to free speech entails!
Go study the history of religious oppression and the birth of religious liberty in western civilisation… This is where the right to free speech was born!
Look at What Arderns’ Minion Andrew Little has to say about a political pamphlet that was circulated in Point Chev… this is her main man responsible for framing new Hates speech laws!
The Pamphlet called for ‘One law for all’… thats an *inclusive* Ideal in which all peoples of New Zealand are subject to the same laws… no favoritism… no discrimination… and yet he has called this *Racism*!
Quote: “The pamphlet titled One Treaty One Nation, calls for an end to state partnership with Māori, scrapping the Waitangi Tribunal, Māori electorates and wards and says Māori have benefited from colonisation lifting them out of “a violent stone age existence”.
Andrew Little who is overseeing a review of hate speech in the wake of the terrorist attacks told the Herald his view was the pamphlet is racist.
“It peddles myths about pre-European Maori society that historical scholarship does not bear out. If it demonstrates anything, it is that the author of it is an ignorant fool.”
How Arse-backwards and hypocritical could anyone possibly be???
The Man is worse than an imbecile!
Hes a Dangerous Political snake… and if he thinks by writing legislation that outlaws political opinions that disagree with his own patently wrapped Ideas he has another thing coming!
Little is suggesting this pamphlet calling for one law for all is written by some nutcase when in reality it is expressing a view that is held by a great portion of New Zealanders including many respected politicians more than his equal and many other prominent and intelligent New Zealanders.
The Principle of Racial equality is neither ‘Anti-Maori’ nor Fringe!
It is a legitimate Political position held by thousands of New Zealanders, well reasoned, and has been a foremost topic of elections for the past 50 years!
Does Andrew Little think he can impose his own liberal apartheid views by labeling opposition as hate speech?
As a Libertarian… I reserve my right to propagate the Idea of *One law for all New Zealanders* and to fight for the Principle of Justice… *Racial equality before the law*… just as I have done for the past two decades, and no new ‘hate speech laws’ written under the excuse of the Christchurch atrocity
will silence me from condemning the apartheid state that Ardern and Little are now at the helm!
I dont care if Andrew Little believes that Fighting for Racial equality is somehow ‘Anti-Maori’ and Hate speech!
It is not hate speech! I do not Hate Maori… I am a Maori myself!
I want what is best for them and all the people of New Zealand, and I condemn as unjust and an absolute failure the current Apartheid syatem that has not lifted Maori out of the gutter of our Social statistics, but has been a gigantic extortion racket!
I will not stop… I will never cease from seeking to expose the dishonesty of the Governments False revisionist history that seeks to deceive New Zealanders into accepting the lie that the Treaty of Waitangi created a two tier Racial system rather than uniting *all the peoples of New Zealand as one people under one law and one sovereign with equal rights* The Government will have to arrest me and throw me in jail because I will never stop using my natural right to freely speak the truth!
I declare that the current policies of Waitangi separatism are Evil!
So New Zealanders… will you surrender our country to such evil and tyrannical powers as have manifested themselves under Jacinda Arderns Psychotic Government????
I have Children and Grand children who I want to live free and know the truth!
Id rather die in jail that surrender Political Freedom and My faith to the evil powers that threaten these most precious of values!
Will I have to rot in a dungeon as a political prisoner for New Zealanders rights to free speech and the principle of racial equality before the Law???
That this is even a possibility shows how dangerous to rights and freedom this new proposal for hate speech legislation is!
We can be sure that Little’s new Hate speech laws will result in a wave of censorship and Punishment for Thought Crimes… maybe the will force some of us to drink Hemlock for not worshiping the State Gods and Corrupting the Youth!
Political writer Dr Muriel Newman has written about these things in an article named ‘A totalitarian state’ and I quote…
“Calls for restrictions on free speech by radical Government MPs should raise the alarm about our future. While the Bill of Rights protects our freedom of thought, expression, and association, as we have already seen through the Censor’s bans, these rights are fragile and can easily be taken away.
Laws to protect New Zealanders from ‘hate’ can already be found in the Crimes Act, Harmful Digital Communications Act, Human Rights Act, and the Sentencing Act. If the Government is committed to stronger deterrents, they simply need to enforce the existing laws.
Already the call for action against ‘hate’ since the Christchurch attack has resulted in people losing their jobs for making thoughtless remarks, websites being blocked, and a social media crackdown being implemented. It may also have been responsible for a man losing his life.
New Zealanders who value the freedom and liberty that underpins our society should strongly oppose new laws to ban ‘hate’. Such laws, that would enable the Police to act against anyone expressing ideas contrary to those deemed acceptable by the Government, have proven to be a disaster in countries where they have been introduced, over-criminalising the population and allowing vexatious complainants to destroy lives. “…
I concur with Muriel, and implore the People of New Zealand to rally and protest against this Hitlarian Drive against Freedom in our country!
Do you want your children to grow up free?
Do you reserve the right to teach them your own Values and beliefs?
Or do you surrender these priceless things .. and give your children’s minds to the State to brainwash them with the beliefs and ideals these Political psychopaths running the machine?
Satan laughing spreads his wings.
It’s been over seven long months since the last time I just dropped in here to try to explain my absence from my own blog. In a word, depression.
I must preface the following remarks in this paragraph by saying that I regard psychiatry as a pseudoscience. I regard psychiatrists in general with contempt. Nonetheless, depression is classified as a psychiatric illness. I suffer from it myself (see link above). Regardless of the true nature of the beast, it truly is a beast. It is a life-threatening condition. Up to 10% of people who are diagnosed with clinical depression (aka major depressive disorder) take their own lives, sooner or later. Over 50% of all people who die by suicide suffer from clinical depression. In fact, 90% of all people who die by suicide suffer from depression, alcoholism, or some other diagnosable psychiatric disorder at the time of their deaths. Suicide claims more lives than war, murder, and natural disasters combined.
Of course, all of the above has just been brought home to me yet again after I read yesterday’s blog post by my co-blogger Tim on the tragic death of his friend Bruce Davies. May he rest in peace.
I’d now like to turn to something more positive.
The whole truth is that my prolonged break from blogging has been due to more than just my mental malaise. Several other factors have also contributed to the decline in my blogging output over the last couple of years. And one of them is that over the past year and a bit I’ve been spending rather too much of my spare time learning to play the bass guitar! It’s become my obsession. In fact, I’ve gotten good enough at it that I’m now in a punk rock three-piece called Headcase. I’m on bass, Bill the drummer’s on drums, and Simon’s on guitar and vocals.
Sure, so far we’ve had only one actual band practice, but it’s early days yet. We’re going to attempt a few covers to begin with, starting with a song called Submission by the Sex Pistols, and then we’ll take it from there. Watch this space.
But as well as becoming a rock star in my spare time I really want to get back into blogging on a regular basis. I’ve missed it. I’m out of practice. And I have writer’s block. So I thought I’d warm up with an album review. And a controversial opinion, viz., that The Endless River is Pink Floyd’s best album since Wish You Were Here.
But it’s been a hell of a day, it’s getting late, so my review will have to wait. There are only so many spoons in a day.
Meanwhile, I’m very much still alive, still here, and, furthermore, I’m back. 🙂
Below is my hastily written goodbye to my long time friend Bruce Christopher Davies, who took his own life 4-3-18.
Bruce was a fully fledged Hard-man Engineering Rebel Bogan… He had a colorful existence… Cars, Bikes, Beer, Woman, and Song.
Hard work and Hard Rock.
In the end it all took its toll…
He will be missed by his Mates, and Family.
This Blog post is to pay Tribute to this Awesome dude… my fabulous friend with a Big Heart.. loved by many.. and for those who never got to pay their respects to Bruce with his unexpected passing.
Please leave comments and photos below.
Bruce and friends at Hamilton Jay day about 2007.
My tale of Bruce Davies.
By Tim Wikiriwhi
Spoken at his Funeral.(Edited)
This story of Bruce Davies … My Story…starts at New Haven engineering, Judea Tauranga in 1987, when I had just moved down from west Auckland a week after finishing my Engineering apprenticeship…
I had a small Bedford housebus that I drove, and parked up at my mums place in Gate pa.
I was 18, and I wanted to live in Tauranga as from visiting my mother who was living there… the Bay of Plenty appeared to be a paradise!
Plenty of Hot friendly girls, sunshine and beaches!
Just one great big Holiday park!
I was not in Tauranga long before I started looking for work as an engineer.
Being an Auckland Westy, when I met the Bay of Plenty Bogan Bruce Davies who was working at New Haven Structural Engineers … we were a cultural perfect fit… though I was a Christian… we had the same Westy Bogan values … and we hit it off immediately.
Not only that… we had had similar upbringings… not known our Fathers… being raised in a single parent house by our mothers, etc
New Haven was a Structural Fabrication Workshop and We were Building Tanks and structures for the Waihi Goldmine.
Bruce was a great engineer… a great welder and fabricator… a hard man.
Heavy Fabrication Engineering is a real mans job… Not afraid to get dirty… We took pride in being Hard.
He was also a great farmer.
As a New Guy… sitting in the New Haven smoko room full of workers and the Boss, Bruce loudly asks me… “Do you smoke Pot?”
I was shocked!
As a 19 year old Westy… OF Course I smoked pot! Yet we Westies were *secret squirrel* about such things at our Jobs… around ‘Nomies’/ trendies/etc… so I was like trying to wisper… bro keep it down!
Yet it was only a matter of days before I was smoking weed with Bruce outside his mums place in my bus… and drinking Waikato… two things that would become synonymous with our friendship that would last 30 years.
We would under age Drink Waikato and play pool at the Otumotai Trust hotel..with Bruce’s mates Al, Mark, and Guy… the five of us looked like black peas from the same pod… all would wear black Levis, black tee shirts, black jerseys, black beanies, and all were about the same height and all had shaggy long un-kept hair… and we were suspicious of anyone who did not look like us!
One day I rolled into the Trust Hotel car park in my bus and Bruce said to the boys… here comes ‘the blowfly’… referring to my green and black bus… and after that my nickname was Blowfly!
Thanks mate… it was a classic nickname… one that makes you cringe.
Me and my Bus.
I had my 21st party at Bruce’s and Nicky’s pad in Thompsons track Katikati… in a farmhouse where he was milking and farming.
I then moved back to Auckland for a few years with a pretty Tauranga Girl (Carol) and we soon had a Daughter (Melissa) … yet having got used to the Tauranga pace … the Auckland Rat race sucked and so we moved back to Tauranga… And I was soon working with Brucie again in Structural Engineering… for a company called Metal Trend… this is when my Son Jamie was born.
(Carol and I would separate a few years later… yet we are friends now)
Bruce had an affinity with cats.
He was a cool Cat! and he certainly had nine lives. He wreaked at least 50% of the vehicles he ever owned…
Bruce had his orange ginger cat ‘Russell’ who was Bruce’s best mate… “the greatest cat in the world” according to Bruce. He nick named Russell ‘Patrol leader’… Russell was always on patrol… and they spent many years together… even after Bruces great love Nicky left him for his best friend.
Bruce and Cats went together.
Bruce found Joy (My Wife), Mine, and our sons grey cat Floyd as a tiny Kitten in the gutter outside the Te Rapa Pub Hamilton…One dark winter rainy nite… and brought him home to our place as at the time he was staying with us after going through another tuff break up with another lady…
And Bruce as many of you probably already know… had his last cat named ‘Tuesday’ with him in the car… and they passed way together. Tuseday is buried on site in the upper reaches of the Cormandal peninsula.
Floyd My Cat… who owes his life to Bruce.
Bruce was a romantic soul, yet like so many of us everytime he fell in love… it was followed by a painful break up… and these were the low points in his life.
I remember how happy Bruce was when he and Amanda had Michael… Bruce was a proud Father and it was devastating when He had a messy break up with Amanda, and it was virtually impossible for Bruce to maintain any contact with Michael… too painful to deal with the situation, and when Amanda moved to Australia that definitely was a barrier too far for Bruce, and Like me he would have been hoping that at some time when Mike had grown up… that they would make contact again … sadly Bruce took a heavy downturn… and now this will never happen.
Michael… You have my sincere apologies on Bruces behalf… he was a great Guy… yet he was a person who… in the end…did not like or function well according to the rules conservative society demands…
I hope you and I get a chance to talk about your old man so you get to know him better.
As the decades past we had countless good times … partying… smoking weed… and hanging out.
I got my first tattoos with Bruce at his house on a Kiwifruit orchard up Omanawa road (lower Kaimai ranges) … from a flatmate who was planning to become a tattoo artist and needed some suckers to practice on!
Bruce got a Ledzeplin wizard holding up a lantern on his arm, and the big Scorpion on his back and shoulder… Bruce was a Scorpio.
Now though some folk will not approve of this yet… as I have already mentioned smoking weed was a major recreational past time for Bruce and I.
I got busted by the police *twice* with Bruce over the years.
Both these times are quite amusing to look back on, yet I would become a staunch Libertarian activist for the decriminalisation of Cannabis… and Bruce being a Mate would help me with setting up Libertarianz party stands at Jay days etc… he would take the pics of me speaking, etc… and some of my best quality photos I have of Bruce are Libertarian activism pics… Both of us were now living in Hamilton Waikato.
The war on drugs is very oppressive for fringe-dwellers like Bruce… and myself… people who don’t want to conform to the sheepish standards that pass as ‘normal/ conservative’…
We Libertarians despise how oppressive the ‘Mob rule’ of our Nanny state democracy is, and defiantly ‘Live like its legal’… and because of righteous activism and world trends… cannabis will soon be legal here in New Zealand… as it has become in many countries around the world.
In 2002 Bruce would be the Best man at Joy and my wedding at Mc Clarens falls in the Kaimai hills above Tauranga.
It was an honor to have him as my best man.
Though I have been fortunate to have had more than one ‘Best mate’… Bruce earned the right to stand beside me on my most important day, in front of most of my other friends and family.
He rose to the occasion and was a great support…. The after party being the best party of my life… and he was a big part of that… we used his stereo for the Soundz, and he was a big help cleaning up in the days that followed.
About twenty years ago Bruce and I had another painful shock.
Bruces life long friend Mark Crosby… one of our tight Posse… killed himself in a car in a reserve on the Matamata side of the Kaimais.
I got the call from Bruce about it…. And every since then I had a fear… a premonition… that Bruce was harbouring thoughts that this was a legitimate option he had for himself.
And this has proved to be the case.
I must ask you all not to follow Bruces example!
It was a very Bad idea… Death will come calling for us soon enough and when someone takes their life… they take away any chance for Providence to shine again in their lives… The Sun will rise again if only you endure… Hold on and have faith… Don’t let the world break your spirit!
Find something that fills your life with value and meaning… I have my Christian faith…
Bruce had at least another 20 years of quality life… so many good things he will now miss… and because of what he did..we… the ones that loved him and appreciated him… will miss out too.
Now I am going to close this on a sad note.
About the time that Joy and I were expecting our son Roman, Bruce and I had a falling out… and I decided to stop visiting him and focus on my new responsibility as a Dad.
I was hoping Bruce would turn up one day and we would talk things through and get things settled and we would carry on as normal… I lost contact with him when he moved… yet always hoping… sadly the years quickly ticked by… and Bruce never showed.
I am very sad that we never managed to get it sorted.
I am angry that he chose to pass away without trying….
And I carry Guilt that I did not act upon my thoughts several years ago to track him down and sort it out.
I am sorry my friend for not being there when you needed me… not being there to tell you to get your shit together like I did many times before.
I hope you forgive me.
I hope you are in a better place… maybe with Mark, and Pat, and your Mum.
Good bye Mate… and thanks for everything.
With consent of Bruce’s family , We… his friends took Bruce the day before his funeral up into the hills overlooking Raglan, and gave him his ‘last rites’ Bogan style.
We Celebrated his life…. we had our last Beers with him, our last games of Pool… and spent all night laughing and telling hard case yarns about our Bro.
Girls turned up and wept over his coffin, and we transported him in style in a Holden Panel wagon with Triumph Bonneville Escort.
He was dressed in a Black Beanie, Shades, Pink Floyd Dark side of the Moon tee shirt, Blue Jeans and Black Army Boots.
We played his friend Paul Goughs’ Original ‘K9 Convention’ song… absolutely Unique… Rockin… and a track Bruce loved.
I know a lot of people will be bummed out they did not get the chance to see him off… things happened so quickly.
We hope all his mates approve of our send off… It was done in the best Bruce style.
Thanks to everyone who made it to pay their respects, and help make it worthy.
Special thanks to Brucies People in the Waikato.
And there will be a commemoration for Bruce in one years time somewhere appropriate with the idea of perhaps spreading his ashes, and this will be another opportunity for Bruce’s friends to pay their respects.
Maybe McClarens falls… first weekend in March… as Bruce was a part of The Kaimai community and so many of us had great times with Bruce in the Hills there.
Please check this post for updates.
Heaps more Photos of Bruce’s Celebration and Funeral go to my Facebook page … could not fit them into this post Here
Apparently its Census night!
Apparently we are all supposed to be good little slaves and happily pass on all our personal information to the Leviathan… You know the story… if you have not done anything wrong… if you are not a member of any politically incorrect minority… you have nothing to fear….
The right to privacy is sooo unimportant anyway.
Nanny State knows best!
And you will be helping the Beast decide how to spend all the money they have extorted from you at the point of a gun… Because the Beast cares for you… children.
So It would be very naughty if any of you refuse to Comply…because *compliance is everything* ….that’s the most important question at stake… making sure you know whose Boss!
What value to you place on your own dignity as a free person?
I for one will not be visiting the NZ census online page.
I have just started a New Facebook page with the above title.
Law and order are subjects I am very passionate about, esp because I have suffered from the injustices of Bad Laws enforced by unscrupulous Police… and so I know first hand how Bad Laws wrongfully enforced corrodes an individuals faith in society… causes a hate for society, and mass produces Criminals and Outlaws.
It was a near thing for me yet by the grace of God, he taught me the dynamics of these things, and why I ought to refrain from going down that dark ally… and instead ‘Keep the faith’ in Justice, and work for a more just and enlightened society.
As a Libertarian, not an Anarchist I believe in Just Government, Just Laws, and the Just enforcement of just laws.
Good Government, and Good Police respect the inalienable rights and liberties of Individuals, and their just and limited powers are delegated to them by the people (as Individuals) as an extension of the individuals right to provide for their own defense (Self defense) … yet that is as far as their legitimate function goes.
Good Cops… like Good Government are a boon to society… a Good Cop ought to be a Pillar of Ethics… a person motivated by Compassion and who sees virtue in serving the people… and this is something quite different from a Paid goon who enjoys wielding power under the pretense and pseudo-legitimacy of enforcing the Law… irrespective of *what* the nature of the law is.
If This page pours scorn, ridicule, or outrage upon events and the actions of an officer, department, or Court Ruling, please remember that this page is *Not about Hate*… It is about Justice and reform.
Good Police should be as outraged as I am, when bad police get away with injustice.
A Good cop is a person of the highest Scruple and integrity… He/ she is not in it for the money… or the power.
They will put the rights and liberties of the people they seek to serve ahead of tyrannical Party political agendas… and a Just society ought to have a constitution that embodies these ‘Higher principles’ that trumps Parliamentary whims, and has the authority to Deem The Evil ambitions of Politicians to be corrupt… and therefore void…. and therefore Criminal … and a code of Ethical conduct by which Good Cops can repair in defense of their refusal to enforce Bad laws and Evil Orders.
A Bad cop is a person who has no problems enforcing Evil laws that encroach upon the rights and liberties of the people.
Just as Satan appears as an Angel of Light, Evil Political agendas… and Bad cops always disguise themselves under the garb of Expedience, emergency, or some supposed Lofty Social and ‘Politically Correct’ Ideal.
Bad Cops even use Just Laws as pretense to commit gratuitous violence and oppression… and frame the innocent.
It is a characteristic of Evil to be able to pervert and twist good things to evil ends… and Bad cops do this all the ding dong day!
“He Resisted arrest”… “He went for my Gun”… so I shot him dead…… They know, and even have been trained how to work the system so that they can commit violence and crimes with impunity.
When the Cops are Corrupt… the wheels of society are truly falling off the wagon, and there are few things more destructive to Civil order… few Evils that generate Criminals than when people loose respect for the Law… because the powers that be… and esp the Police are corrupt and oppressive.
A society that does not vigorously expose, and prosecute Dirty Bad cops is on the road to Ruin…
Power Tends to attract the worst personality types, and it corrupts those of weak moral stature, which is a fundamental reason why Legal Powers of Force need to be very very limited, and The Government and Police need to be under constant scrutiny… and held to the highest standards of principle.
Sadly for most of the world the things I have written above are ignored, and so The Reputation of the Police is that of Oppressors… of a violent Criminal Gang within a corrupt system that protects them.
My Page is all about addressing these issues… about pointing out instances of Great police work, and contrasting them against instances when the Police commit crimes against the people.
My ambition for this page is not to propagate lawlessness and contempt for the institution of the Police but the very opposite… to promote Good Laws, To encourage reforms where needed, and be a place where people can discuss these issues… so please Like, Post and share here.
All are welcome.
This subject is in the very first rank of importance.
In writing this I hope to be able to communicate with both Believers and Unbelievers… which is difficult because the two extremes favour different approaches… one tends to run away when bible verses are deployed… assuming they are about to subjected to a nutty Bible bashing, yet the other tends to think that unless a post has a bible verse every second line that the post is some sort of Satanic plot!
Yet as has become my style, I will speak in plain ‘Natural’ terms as much as possible yet will stitch in scripture as I deem appropriate.
I believe this topic has value both as a means by which both Unbelievers and believers may gain important insights.
The whole theme is very much one of the most essential aspects of the proper relationship of any thoughtful person to the Almighty.
I will talk about how to deal with ‘struggles and issues’ in believing in Gods good character in due course, yet first I must present the basics of why Faith in his good character is essential.
There are many many vitally important reasons why it is *Faith* that puts us in the right relationship with God, and why he has made it the key to our relationship with himself.
One of the most interesting.. and telling facts is that *Faith in Gods Good Character* has always been… and always will be essential… even after/when we are in his very presence and have walked and talked with him simply because of our Limited capacity for knowledge… and his Infinite Divinity.
There will never be a time when we have full understanding of all things about the Almighty, and thus even though we may have a massive understanding… and countless proofs of his Good character… there will always exist a gap between what we know of him… and his full Glory… and thus Faith will always be needed to bridge this gap.
Then for the well versed and philosophically minded it is also understood that ultimately… all our knowledge… even scientific knowledge rests upon unproven assumptions that are accepted by faith!
At the very heart of the History of the Philosophy of science was the foundational ‘articles of faith’ that came directly from monotheism and is why Theists were responsible for the birth of modern science and why they occupy the Chief seats and hold the chief honours for virtually every branch of modern science… as the Founders.
Primarily the impetus to scientific discovery and secular explanations was born of the belief in a single Creator of everything who made the universe and ordered it according to Divine plans that may be rationally understood, and that the universe functions via Fixed Divinely established Laws… that Man may investigate and understand… because these laws are themselves rational and a testament to the truth and rationality of God Almighty.
Facts like this are not open to debate as they stand as Empirical reality… facts of the history of the philosophy of science… rather than on mere hypothetical intellectual ideology and bias.
One of the greatest delusions people like Hitchens, Dawkins, or Tyson have foisted onto the gullible atheist sheeple is the notion that the advance of Science has been synonymous with the advance of atheism… and the discrediting of faith in the Bible.
So far-be-it from being true that Christian faith… is as Atheists present the idea … as being a ploy to suck in the gullible to abdicate their minds and blindly swallow the delusions of religion… these atheists are displaying an abject ignorance of the dynamics and logic that underpins the Christian call to faith.
That *some False Prophets and priests may plot that way is not a justification to say *All Faith is Irrational and for fools*… and in fact to be an Atheist requires a heck of a lot of faith!
Atheists like Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris display both rank ignorance and patent dishonesty when they fail to acknowledge the debt science owes to Theistic cosmology.. yet of course their entire arguments fall over if they were to admit the truth!
They prefer to sell books like ‘The God delusion’… ‘God is not Great…how religion poisons everything’ etc etc.
And millions of chumps who hunger for any reason not to believe the bible swallow their Atheist delusions by the ship load.
Most of these people have blinders over their eyes and hands over their ears… they cannot be reached via reason… and in fact Spiritual truths are completely alien to them.
This being so any reader who has even reached this paragraph in my post and is honestly contemplating what I am saying… has hope!… as their hearts are not as hard as impregnable stone.. and they are more open to Objective discourse.
The Bible’s call to faith is not only Philosophically profound, it is also beautifully exemplified in its explanations as to how and why the world is the way it is…warts and all.
That Faith has always been… and always will be essential is shown to be true by the Fall of Lucifer… who was not like us in that we have never seen God…. He not only existed, came and went from the very presence of God… he also held the most exalted place in the hierarchy God had established In Heaven… and on the original Pre-Adamite Earth.
Lucifer had it all…. except the worship that was due to God alone.
It was the dark seed of Pride in Lucifer that caused him to feel he was worthy of greater honor than what he received that caused him to hate God… ie he began to question the goodness of God’s character.
Satan Seethed with envy… and was overcome with a delusion that God was treating him unjustly.
And Lucifer began to tell them (The Angels) lies.. and so under the weight of his Cunning…it was a naive lack of faith that allowed him to deceive many of the Angels into rebellion against God… and as Satan later on… also deceive Adam and Eve into disbelieving Gods word.
… yet I will mitigate the fall of the angels and of Adam and Eve in this one sense… ‘They were like Children in their innocence’… apart from the wiles of The Devil… the father of Lies…these matters might never have entered into their minds before Lucifer sowed his own mis-trust in the goodness of God’s character into their hearts… like a disease.
Yet still had they maintained faith in the goodness of God, Satan would never have been able to cause them to sin….
That Trust in God’s Good character and his right to be Lawgiver and Judge is clearly seen in the test and singular law that God gave to Adam with respect to the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
Adam (and Eve) were free to enjoy the fruits of the Garden except the one in the midst which God deemed to be prohibited… and it is a prima facie demonstration of how Satan works.
Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
From the above we see that Satan was able to sow distrust in Eve about God’s Good character by suggesting God was deceitfully withholding good things from them and had lied to them!
Satan said “Ye shall not surely die…” in direct contradiction to Gods word… and instead of trusting in God Good character and right to make binding laws upon them… she was decieved by this ruse… and fell into sin.
^ in those few words we find why Faith between Conscious Moral Free agents and our Creator is essential… even when unlike today… Humans and Angels dont have to have faith in God’s existence because they experienced him empirically!
They walked at talked with him!
In those few words we also find the key modus opperandi of Satan!
If he can get you to question the Good character of God Almighty and get you to think that God’s word cannot be trusted… Satan has you exactly where he wants you… and in such a condition of accusation against God… Against his word… and against his right to be Moral Lawgiver and Judge… it is impossible for you to please God!
You have switched rolls!
You now claim to be the Judge of the Almighty!
You now think *you can decide* whether or not you will be subject to his Laws and Authority!
You doubt the truthfulness of his word.
And that Satan is now ‘the God of this fallen world’ is demonstrated every day by the perverse Global phenomena of Mankind in their arrogance asserting that The Lord is Unjust… that his judgments are unfair and tyrannical… and that Mankind ought to be allowed to write their own rules… if any!
And there is plenty of Material for the children of Satan to continue to employ to ensure the next generations perpetually believe the God of the bible is a moral monster!
And it is Godless Humanity that have turned this world into a cesspool of filth and violence!
The Height of Human vanity, depravity, and delusion knows no bounds!
I will add links to this post that will some degree expand on many of the monumental points that I have touched upon above only briefly, yet without making this post extremely long I wish to tie in all this with some personal dilemmas I myself wrestle with… and how … knowing the dynamics of faith … I choose to deal with them.
The philosophical and explanatory power of the Book of Genesis is so Gigantic as to be a fingerprint of divine truth!
When contemplated with a sober mind it is not surprising that this text has remained one of the Greatest philosophical/theistic texts of all time!
Not only does it enunciate with clarity the origin of the Universe and humanity, but of equal importance it explains one of the great challenges to faith in the goodness of God’s character… the existence of Evil… and what we today describe as ‘Natural calamities’.
These are things that Satan, and his children constantly use as wedges… as darts … to fire at the innocent and unlearned… and the foolish and rebellious… to undermine any faith they might entertain that God is Good and just.
These accusations require their own rebuttals and The bible contains sufficient facts and demonstrations That God is Holy, Just, and Loving, etc… none the less it cannot be denied that there are things not only in reality but especially within the scriptures that even bible believers like myself *Dont like*… and these test my faith… yet I do not do what so many so-called Christians do… and that is deny the validity of these scriptures… and come with sophisticated excuses why they should not be believed!
The last century saw a massive falling away from bible believing faith… a sad and unnecessary retreat in the face a relentless rationalist onslaught.
Many Christians were deceived into believing the theory of evolution was a scientific fact that conclusively disproved the story of Adam and Eve.
Many were fooled by sophisticated arguments that the God of the Old testament was Cruel and unjust… these people succumbed to the wiles of the devil and instead of clinging to the scriptures and trusting in Gods Goodness and supreme Justice… they caved in and abandoned the very core of their faith.
Had they held fast to their faith… they would not have had to endure long before the evidence would mount up that evolution was a false hypothesis, and that the very complexity of the cell and DNA discovered by the advance of genetics would utterly vindicate the story of Adam and Eve and of Intelligent design. (though of course atheists still refuse to abandon their superstitions and sadly many Christians also have not returned to faith in the book of Genesis as they in fact still have not accepted that a Good God could judge the world by flood)
Now I would never suggest that the question of the existence of Evil and of Natural calamities should never be contemplated!
I believe such questions to be very important… yet we must take extreme care with how we walk on this treacherous soil!
There are great snares and pitfalls that await the stumbling fool.
Satan appears as an Angel of Light!
He and his minions will always present pseudo-moral arguments in accusation of Gods word and contend that believers are guilty of accepting atrocities.
Such as is common with Rationalists who assert the story of Noah’s flood is not only a myth… but also as being a clear demonstration that the God of the bible if he were real… would be a monster!
And falling for these sorts of vacuous… yet powerful delusions has caused untold millions to abandon faith in the Book of Genesis… the very foundation-stone of Gods word!
And I will not deny that the story of the Flood is chilling to the bone!
I will not deny that it would be very satisfying to think that this story is just a fable invented via superstitious and manipulative Priest-craft… and to thereby self-vindicate simply writing the whole business off with the waive of the hand… and then to mock those who cling to these scriptures as Cretins.
And thus thinking we have strong enough science… and moral arguments to subdue *any reasonable debate* We can proudly declare ourselves liberated from Tyranny and myth!
And there is no shortage of Rationalist material… even from so-called ‘Christians’ who argue the Book of genesis is not to be trusted… that it is just allegorical, etc… even though that is not how Jesus or Paul our Apostle saw the Book.
They were Bible believers!
They Knew God was Holy, and just in his judgement, and that his word is trustworthy!
Abraham lived Post Noahs flood… there was probably plenty of empirical evidence for the Flood all about him and when God called him to leave Ur and go to a land in which he would show him… and that God would bless him and make his children innumerable… Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness… saith Paul
Knowing all these things does not fully take away many things that I struggle with… things that I still dont like… things I know are true… yet wish were not.
Yet I accept that Reality and Moral truth are not Subject to my will, and that there are many Objective truths and realities that do not require my assent.
I know that any person who cannot accept the possibility of such objective realities … and still not trust in the Good character of God … but deem anything they dont like as proof that Either The God of the bible does not exist… or that if he does… then he is Not loving and good… to be the height of vanity and self delusion!
These people are the very definition of subjectivists … the very height of Ego-mania… in that they think they… in their ignorance and folly… can stand in judgement of the Almighty!
They have fallen into Satan’s trap.
And the greatest proof of this can be easily found when you investigate what ground it is upon which they base their own moral authority!
Any cursory examination of their moral foundations reveals their feet firmly ensnared in a swamp!
Ie They have no higher moral ground upon which they can justly claim to stand in moral Judgement of the character of God!
And when I read the scriptures I find that most.. if not all the objective realities and Biblical truths that I dont like are also things that God himself has expressed great sadness… such as the Righteous judgement of the lost in eternal torment… and in particular of many of my own friends and family whom I love and sympathize with!
and it is when contemplating this that I begin to understand the terrible burden that is God’s alone to bear.
Who among us would desire to Judge the deeds of humanity with Absolute justice?
None of us are even worthy to throw a stone at an adulterer.
Such Judgments can only be done without hypocrisy by an absolutely Holy Judge.
Yet still who would deny that Evil cannot be allowed to go unpunished?
Indeed another of the great deceptions of Satan and his minions has been the accusation that God seems to allow so much wickedness to prevail… and go unpunished.
Here we expose another gigantic hypocrisy and contradiction in the Atheists contentions against The Lord.
With One hand they curse him for letting the destruction and misery upon the innocent of Sin go unpunished, yet on the other they Curse God for executing Judgement and justice upon the wicked!
Though I would dearly love to believe in the Heresy of *Universal salvation* …. or that the Damned will simply be annihilated… etc etc… I know that this is not the true doctrine of the scriptures… and it is out of the knowledge that Judgement is coming for the lost… for their wickedness… esp the wickedness of rejecting Christ’s sacrifice on the cross… that I busy myself with trying to share the Gospel of the grace of God, and attempt to win souls to faith in the trustworthiness of the Bible as a Divinely inspired and preserved Revelation from God to us.
This entire post has been written in the hope that even a few souls might grasp the truth… and share it with their friends, neighbors, and loved ones.
I am painfully aware that I am a very unworthy vessel of these truths… and that many of my own character faults and evils do not reflect well on Christ or the Gospel… nonetheless I dare not remain silent… my time is short… and my burden is heavy with Fear for the lost… esp for My Friends, neighbors, and loved ones.
I also have no doubt that some of my interpretations and assumptions are still cloaked in ignorance… and I look forward to the day that God himself dispels many of my fears with his light.
Even though I know the gospel truth… That Christ has taken away my sins upon his cross…I still fear my own evils and worry about standing before the Holy and Almighty God… the righteous Judge of the wicked!
All I can do is trust in the gospel truth… and rest in my faith in Gods Mercy and grace is sufficient for a wretch like me!
When I am confronted by challenging moral criticisms or supposed scientific ‘facts’ that are presented as ‘proof’ the Bible is in error for which i have no immediate counter-argument, I have learned to rest in my faith and to search out an answer… and in the 30+ years that I have been a Bible believe *Never* has any such challenge ever proven to undo my rational belief in the scriptures.
Most Often it is not long before the supposed ‘Evidence’ against the Bible is exposed as vacuous… sometimes it may take years before I discover the answer and yet sometimes the criticism is found to be valid yet in these cases they expose an error in my own thinking… and actually help me to discover greater truths that were there all along in the Bible… yet may have been buried under some false doctrine I had picked up along the way!
It is always wonderful when I learn new, and deeper truths as they tend to increase the harmony of the scriptures and dissolve cloudy areas that needed exposing to the light of truth.
So it is that the Christian and Bible believer has nothing to fear from giving skeptical arguments a fair hearing.
For me this has been an ongoing process that has strengthened my trust in the scriptures and made me wiser.
^Not anonymous! Its Proverbs 3vs5,6!
That is in essence the Ultimate position of Faith for the humble soul who knows the limits of his own wisdom yet understands the Truth… that the bible is to be believed… for valid reasons.
I know that I dont know everything, and that I must trust in God in respect to my struggles… and to hold tight to his word no matter what storms of controversy I must face.
I do know God Almighty is Holy, Just, Loving, and good, and that as God he must judge sin… and yet out of love has provided a way for the humble who admit their own sin to be forgiven and saved… by pure grace.
“For God commendeth his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners…. Christ died for us”
“And whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”.
“Faith is the power of an optimistic possibility thinker whereas Doubt is the power of a pessimistic impossibility thinker”
Robert H Sheuller.
The Greatness of the Bible in its explanatory and Value instilling powers is truly Mind-blowing!
Esp when compared to the inescapable nihilism which is what atheism offers!
Faith must overcome skepticism.
Compassion must be stronger than Hatred.
Hope must be greater than despair.
Trust in Gods Word and Good character must overcome the wiles of the Devil.
We have Jesus Christ…and the Gospel of the grace of Grace of God.
King James Bible believer.
I just dropped in to proffer an explanation of my absence from this blog for the past 18 months or so.
In a word, depression. I have been beset with mental health problems my entire adult life. I have at least four diagnosed DSM-5 disorders. Of these, depression is the worst. It is, quite literally, a life-threatening illness. Fortunately, amongst other things, my life is not mine to take. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
Things took a turn for the worse about 18 months ago. Amongst other things, the full implications of having recently been belatedly diagnosed with adult ADHD were sinking in, winter was coming, and my usual coping strategies of injudicious drug use and abnegation of personal responsibility were failing me. But what really got me in a tailspin was when the state started bankruptcy proceedings against me, for alleged failure to pay taxes. I saw my GP about my predicament and he had no hesitation in giving me a medical certificate for WINZ. The upshot is that, since last autumn, I’ve been on the sickness benefit. Yes, that’s right. I’m a ward of the welfare state. So you can see what condition my condition is in.
But that’s enough about me, I don’t want to make this post all about my personal woes. In time-honoured fashion, I want to make it about this country’s political woes. This post will be about the government’s role in providing mental health services and, in particular, it’s role in NZ’s high rates of depression and suicide.
Straightaway, let’s get one thing straight. The government doesn’t actually care. The present National government doesn’t even want to know. Why else would it re-brand what was formerly the sickness benefit as “job seeker support”? A sickness beneficiary already has a job, and they know it! Their job is to get well. Well enough to seek, find, and then hold down a permanent paid position. All of which is easier said than done for the chronically mentally ill. Some of whom should, and do, end up on the invalid’s benefit.
The government doesn’t actually care. Certainly, the neoliberal government we’ve had in this country since 1984 doesn’t give a damn. To begin with, take the fact that the suicide rate for New Zealand males aged 15-19 doubled in the course of three years from 16 per 100,000 in 1985 to 32 per 100,000 in 1988. While trustworthy statistics aren’t easy to find, it would appear that this alarming increase in NZ’s youth suicide rate has held up. I see no reason to dispute the claim that NZ now has the highest rate of teen suicide in the developed world.
Former Children’s Commissioner Ian Hassall makes a couple of especially pertinent points (notwithstanding his dubious analogy to climate change).
The critical fact is that New Zealand has the highest rate of youth suicide in the OECD. This excess of young people’s deaths in New Zealand when compared with other OECD countries must be a result of local factors.
The statistics show that whatever these factors were, they began to operate from 1985 to 1988. That was a time of social turmoil in New Zealand. The economic restructuring that was sweeping the world was imposed faster and deeper in New Zealand than elsewhere.
“No pain, no gain” was the catchphrase of Rogernomics. What it meant was that it was expected that the structural changes would be painful but they would be worth it in creating a more robust economy.
For young people, the changes were rapid and painful indeed. Suddenly, finding a job was not guaranteed and bright future prospects dimmed for many. A reduced welfare safety net meant that many were not sufficiently helped and inequality widened.
I don’t think that we can say for sure what aspect of neoliberalism is to blame, or even that we can definitively blame neoliberalism in the first place for the sustained rise in youth suicides. But it’s certainly a prime suspect.
As ever: what is to be done?
Officially New Zealand has focussed on mental health and mental health services as a means of dealing with the problem. Mental ill-health and lack of mental health services cannot explain the sudden doubling of youth suicide from 1985 to 1988.
Not surprisingly, then, this approach has failed. Mental ill-health undoubtedly has a part to play in many youth suicides, but there is no reason that this should be more of a problem in New Zealand than in other countries.
It is comforting to believe that young people will be safer if our mental health services are improved but it is largely a false hope. Saying so will, no doubt make me unpopular, but so be it.
So be it, and I agree.
Sadly, throwing more money at the problem isn’t going to help much, if at all. In fact, I submit that a big part of NZ’s current mental health crisis is down to excessive reliance on the state to fix the problem. A bigger part is due to state intervention in the first place. It is completely wrong, for example, that the state treats the simple administration of a proven cure for depression as a greater crime than rape or armed robbery, and instead busies itself funding a lolly scramble of often worse than useless placebos.
Whereas I don’t think more government money is going to fix the problem, I do think it’s downright criminal to cut funding to mental health services in a time of mental health crisis. And that’s what this National government has done. My point is that where the state has taken on responsibility for the provision of mental health services, it must honour that commitment in the meantime. Until such time as we can successfully devolve this responsibility to families, friends and support at the local community level. Faceless bureaucracy never made anyone happy.
At a time like this, it is utterly appalling that the government saw fit to cut funding to Lifeline, one of NZs biggest and long-established suicide counselling lines. And instead, allocate that funding to a “new, preferred supplier” called LaVey. All very well, perhaps, except for the six-month hiatus between Lifeline’s funding being cut and the new provider stepping in. Oh, and the fact that Bill English’s wife is on the board of LaVey! Nepotism doesn’t get much uglier. (LeVa, LaVey. Whatever.)
Wait just a moment! Take another look at take the load off. What on earth is that woman friend using to get her mate Dan out of his pit of depression? That’s right, it’s a hangman’s noose.
Sure, it’s supposed to be a lasso. But seriously, what sort of subliminal message are they sending to the suicidal? The people at the agency that created this plagiaristic monstrosity sure have a sick sense of humour. (It wouldn’t surprise me if they were the same outfit responsible for Colin Craig’s election campaign material last election.)
I’m glad that I also have a sick sense of humour and can appreciate it. I hope you do too. To all my depressed friends out there, I say, life is very much worth living, no matter if it seems like a sack of shit right now. Hang on in there!
Today I want to make my rebuttal of a friends defense for Larkin Rose’s expressed position on God/ Deism.
Larken Rose Recognizes the fingerprint of Intelligence within the incredible design of living things yet appears ambivalent towards any further thought or discussion about the ramifications of this Revelation.
He reminds me of the late A Flew… the once High priest of Atheism who in the face of the discoveries of Modern science esp the complexity of living things abandoned his Atheism for belief in Intelligent design… yet never made the full traverse to Bible believing Faith in THE LORD.
Flew was an honest thinker yet ran out of Time…whereas Larken Rose still has time to discover the truth… yet his attitude appears to me to be that of a Man who does not really want to go down that road…and I question his motives.
I argue why Deism may once have been forgivable/ understandable in the distant past, yet is inexcusable today, and that now Reason and Logic are on the side of the Theist.
While both entail the belief in a Creator God, what distinguishes Deism from Theism is that Deism rejects Divine interventions in the affairs of Men… No Miracles to circumvent the laws of Nature… and esp No Divine special Revelations to mankind.
It will be necessary for me to skip over large portions of history and related material for the sake of brevity such as the Deism of the 18th century.
(I will have to do a separate Blog post on these important aspects of this topic at some later date, and insert a link to it here)
Watch Larken Rose Here…
Ten or more years ago I was asked to debate Hamilton based Atheists for the existence of the Christian God.
One of my opponents was Garry Mallett from Act.
Now The only reason I have mentioned this debate is because the 2nd part of my argument was the logical assumption that *If there is in fact a God (in the Full context of the word) and that he made us human beings…as Rational, conscious beings… that it would be a reasonable assumption to think that surely he would communicate with us some how… who he is… why he made us…etc rather than just leaving us Ignorant about such things.
That was my premise for why it is rational to at least consider the possibility that the Bible’s claim to be the Divine Revelation from the Creator of the Universe to be a plausible possibility at least… and that the honest thinking person having first concluded that the Universe and Living things are best understood as the products of intelligent design… that following upon that, that The Bible answers the questions that naturally flow on…. The *Who* is this Great designer of the Universe… and what message does he have for us… his Conscious Rational Moral Free Agent Creations… and most importantly… that such a Revelation is precisely what the rational mind would expect from the God who is there… rather than silence.
This is an argument that places Theism as superior to mere Deism and in fact renders belief in Deism today to be a cop out…poor reasoning at best… mostly willful ignorance.
Deism and Theism both draw upon what has been described as ‘Natural religion’… Ideas about God derived from looking at Nature… looking at what has been described as ‘The Book of God’s works’.
Yet Theism makes an additional claim that we have a second Book that we may also gain direct and infallible knowledge about God.. The Book of his actual words.
Deism/ Natural Religion is great up to certain point, yet severely limited as it can never tell us Human beings *who God is*… only that he is there… and that he is super intelligent and super powerful, and that there is some sort of Objective moral law which We Human beings ought to at least try and live by… that gives our Moral sence some legitimate foundation and purpose… rather than simply being some sort of illusion… mere sentiment… mere feelings.
An Idea such as ‘Kharma’, or ‘Reaping what you sow’… These are the sorts of ideas human beings have arrived at via contemplating nature… ‘Do unto others as you would have done unto you’ … ‘Be Good’… we know that’Theft is evil’…because we hate it when someone steals from us… so dont steal from others… yet still none of this has anything higher than our own opinion to rest upon… or the opinion of ‘wise others’… and is therefore not impervious to arguments of evil men that assert that all such moralizations are vacuous.
Dark minds may posit the question… Maybe the Deity is Malevolent?
Do not Floods and Earthquakes signal that our creator is far from a caring God! ????
Is the only Moral Rule …contrary to what the wowzers would have us believe…that the Strong may subject the weak?
Are they trying to subject the strong to whiles of the weak?
What the heck is really going on?
Deism cant definitively answer this… yet it gives those whom cling to it a certain self-justification for not being Nihilistic… for claiming they are Moral and good. (something that is necessary because of what the bible describes as our innate knowledge/ consciousness of Good and evil)
“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:…”
St Paul. Romans 1:20.
Yet Deism says *Nobody can claim to really know*.
Now I love many of the Great heathen thinkers of classical times, whom both believed a God exists, and that Humanity should be moral, and because of the times and places in which *they lived* I accept that they really had taken ‘Natural religion’ to its highest forms and that they had no ‘Rungs upon which they could possibly ascend higher and closer to God’, and that they were Good, wise, Moral men…In the context of how good any man might be under such circumstances. (Separated/ aliens from Israel, mostly living before the advent of Christ)
It is at this plateau that many of the Great Heathen moral thinkers had arrived.
The Stoic Marcus Aurelius is supposed to have said…
Though Aurelius lived post-Christ and had ‘herd’ about the Christians and held negative opinions about them, I am not sure to what degree he had any real first hand communications with them, or any familiarity with the Old testament/ Book of Genesis, thus I tend to consider his situation as very similar to that of the *Pre-Christ* Gentile thinkers… Aliens from the Divine revelation.
He was a very interesting thinker…God will judge him. Here is an interesting link to this Topic
Now As a Christian Theist who believes the Bible, I know there are Mountains of the most vital truths missing from this Natural/Deistic Faith position because I have the Divine Revelation… The Holy inspired and preserved words of God Almighty himself esp the Facts That Humanity is under a curse because of our Sin, and that our Sin separates us from God and puts us in danger of His Judgement and Damnation.
*It is possible*… because it is so obvious… without the aid of scripture to apprehend by the power of reason alone Humanities fallen/ sinful condition… our wickedness… our depravity… our Cruelty…. and perhaps from this a rationale may be conceived of the need to somehow appease the anger of the God(s)… for justice sake… all sorts of weird Ideas have been proposed… *Yet via reason it would be impossible to conceive of the doctrine of Christs virgin birth, and substitutional atonement for our sins, and resurrection*…from nature alone.
Indeed many Naturally minded people find these Doctrines repugnant… which leads to my main contentions for this blog about Deists living today in western civilization… and their willful ignorance/ rejection of the Divine Revelation… the Bible in which all these doctrines are laid out in the most Logical fashion from the very beginning in Genesis.
As I have said Deism is severely handicapped to what degree it can reveal the nature of God to us… limited in its certainty of moral precepts, etc, none the less *Today*…far from these limits as being considered by trendy thinkers as pitfalls… these people actually *enjoy* them!
Most of these are people *Today* … follow a trend that became fashionable from the end of the Great reformation who… for various reasons…good or bad… *hate organised religion* (which tends to be where Theistic claims of having ‘Divine revelation’ are most prevalent) … they also enjoy what they see as ‘the Freedom to do as they please… the only moral restraints being their own conscience… and esp that Deism can make no emphatic claims of Divine Judgement for moral failures… it cant even emphatically state the validity of any Human Judgement derived from Nature.
They will say that ‘Reason’ is the only Authority they will subject themselves to, and as they have reached to limits of Reason… they cannot be subject to any higher Moral authority or law.
Philosophers love to quote Hume … “you cant get an ‘Ought from an Is”.
Its Funny though that ordinary people seem to be able to do just that without much trouble appealing to sentiment… they are not moved by arguments that say we can have no confidence in these… in fact to my thinking …the rational approach to this mystery of consciousness to the ideas of Good and evil is not to say ‘We cant ever know’… but instead to set out *in faith* on a Pilgrimage to discover some means by which our sentiments can find Objective validation… It is a quest of discovery for the Divine revelation from the Intelligent Creator whose existence is testified by his Natural handiwork.
And It is an Irony that in a work by the great skeptic himself David Hume called ‘Dialogues concerning Natural religion’ in which there is a debate about the existence of God, in which Hume deploys his skeptical arguments in the person of ‘Philo’, yet stunningly… in the final analysis his Book ends by giving the victory to the Theist ‘Cleanthes’!
My contention at the Debate was that not only did the Deity Communicate his existence and expectations of Humanity via Prophets and the written word… He intervened into Human affairs in the Most personal manor…. He visited us… and Walked among us… God was manifest in the flesh.
“Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:…”
Now when you add up all the components I have briefly discussed above you ought to be able to grasp why it is that I myself am a Theist… a Bible believer… That the fact that we westerners have easy access to the King James Bible and the book of Genesis therein, that willfully seeking to remain ignorant of the Divine revelation is inexcusable… and why it is that I have a pet dislike for modern Deism… esp its corruption/heresy of what I call Christian Deism which I see as a pathetic retreat from true Christian Theistic faith…caused by a weakness in faith and Bad reasoning… in the face of Atheist sophistry. (Topic for another Post)
I actually struggle to contain my contempt!
I need to take 5… and chill… and remember that it is only by Gods grace that I myself am a Christian at all.
I need to remember *How alien* I once was… How utterly incapable of apprehending the existence of God let alone the truthfulness of the Bible!
It is with all this in mind that I decided to keep calm and write this post..
Recently A friend of mine tried to justify the Deism of one of his Favorite thinkers Larkin Rose, which I had critisised as being pathetic… because he refused to make the most basic inference that Intelligent design demands *GOD* and that from this obvious conclusion… if he was an honest thinker… would demand he then begin a personal pilgrimage to discover *Who* this Grand designer is.
My friend began to repair to the arguments *of Classical Deism* and the limits that Logic faced in that direction… as if that excuse… which of course appears quite valid when looking back to heathen lands… and times before Christ… aliens to the Divine Revelation, Yet This blogpost is my express rebuttal to that argument when applied to modern thinkers like Larkin.
It is invalid for Thinkers today to simply rest on that ancient Plateau… because they live post Christ and have access to the Bible and history.
This makes them fully culpable for rejecting Jesus Christ.
Socrates on the other hand was not privy to the Bible… and I even conjecture that he would have become a Christian had he been given the opportunity… so many of his conclusions about Divine things being in perfect harmony with the scriptures… that he never had opportunity to read.
I say that If Socrates would have considered the Gargantuan explanatory power for the first chapters in the book of Genesis…plus all the rest… the Biblical explanation for the existence of Evil…The explanation of why God has separated himself from mankind… why we die… why there are Natural disasters, etc etc that it is very possible that he would have realised that this divine revelation gives a great logical basis for Biblical theistic faith when one applies it to the world about him.
That in fact the Bible *Is the Revelation* of the Intelligent designer of everything…his message to us his creatures… esp telling us *Who he is*… and what is *Really* going on.
So I question why it is that though Larken Rose sees through the delusion of atheistic evolution, he still is apathetic towards discovering *Who God is* and challenge him to Read the King James Bible… to really contemplate it’s message… and that in doing so he would no longer be in a position to argue that Logic ends at the plateau of Natural religion.
The Bible is a logical extension from the Plateau at the top of the Mountain… upwards out of the stratosphere all the way… a direct line of communication to the Deity… a logical vindication of Bible believing christian Theism.
Of course Satan and his minions have been attacking the Bible, and via sophistry undermining faith in its veracity as The Bible is the Ultimate Fortress of God for the believer. It is the Ultimate Lighthouse in the storm of life Shining its beams upon the treacherous Rocks of peril, and a Guide of Safe passage… salvation to every soul who sees its light and navigates into the Harbour of God’s love and Grace.
Satan is the enemy Of God and Men’s souls…The Father of Lies… it was by cunning craftiness that he was able to deceive Eve, and get her to disbelieve Gods word and to Eat of the forbidden fruit, and he has been at this game the whole time… Deceiving… yet the word of God remains like a Rock
Happy Resurrection Day!
Protestant, 1611 King James Bible believer, Dispensationalist, Christian Libertarian.
The last paragraphs of Humes Dialouges concerning Natural religion…
If the whole of Natural Theology, as some people seem to maintain, resolves itself into one simple, though somewhat ambiguous, at least undefined proposition, That the cause or causes of order in the universe probably bear some remote analogy to human intelligence: If this proposition be not capable of extension, variation, or more particular explication: If it affords no inference that affects human life, or can be the source of any action or forbearance: And if the analogy, imperfect as it is, can be carried no farther than to the human intelligence; and cannot be transferred, with any appearance of probability, to the other qualities of the mind: If this really be the case, what can the most inquisitive, contemplative, and religious man do more than give a plain, philosophical assent to the proposition, as often as it occurs; and believe that the arguments, on which it is established, exceed the objections, which lie against it? Some astonishment indeed will naturally arise from the greatness of the object: Some melancholy from its obscurity: Some contempt of human reason, that it can give no solution more satisfactory with regard to so extraordinary and magnificent a question. But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural sentiment, which a well-disposed mind will feel on this occasion, is a longing desire and expectation, that heaven would be pleased to dissipate, at least alleviate this profound ignorance, by affording some more particular revelation to mankind, and making discoveries of the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith. A person, seasoned with a just sense of the imperfections of natural reason, will fly to revealed truth with the greatest avidity: While the haughty Dogmatist, persuaded, that he can erect a complete system of Theology by the mere help of philosophy,
disdains any farther aid, and rejects this adventitious instructor. To be a philosophical Sceptic is, in a man of letters, the first and most essential step towards being a sound, believing Christian; a proposition, which I would willingly recommend to the attention of Pamphilus: And I hope Cleanthes will forgive me for interposing so far in the education and instruction of his pupil.
Cleanthes and Philo pursued not this conversation much farther; and as nothing ever made greater impression on me, than all the reasonings of that day; so, I confess, that, upon a serious review of the whole, I cannot but think, that Philo’s principles are more probable than Demea’s; but that those of Cleanthes approach still nearer to the truth.
Read what Andrew Napolitano has to say about the ‘Revenge of the Deep State’….
“Liberty is rarely lost overnight. The wall of tyranny often begins with benign building blocks of safety — each one lying on top of a predecessor — eventually collectively constituting an impediment to the exercise of free choices by free people, often not even recognized until it is too late.”
Here is the back story.
In the pre-Revolutionary era, British courts in London secretly issued general warrants to British government agents in America. The warrants were not based on any probable cause of crime or individual articulable suspicion; they did not name the person or thing to be seized or identify the place to be searched. They authorized agents to search where they wished and seize what they found.
The use of general warrants was so offensive to our Colonial ancestors that it whipped up more serious opposition to British rule and support for the revolutionaries than the “no taxation without representation” argument did. And when it came time for Americans to write the Constitution, they prohibited general warrants in the Fourth Amendment, the whole purpose of which was to guarantee the right to be left alone by forcing the government to focus on bad guys and prohibit it from engaging in fishing expeditions. But the fishing expeditions would come.
In 1978, Congress passed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was intended to rein in the government spying on Americans that had been unleashed by the Nixon administration. FISA established a secret court and permitted it to issue warrants authorizing spying on agents of foreign governments when physically present in the United States.
People born in foreign countries who are here for benevolent or benign or even evil purposes have the same constitutional protections as those of us born here. That’s because the critical parts of the Constitution that insulate human freedom from the government’s reach protect “persons,” not just citizens. But FISA ignored that…
Donald Trump does not enjoy the Loyalty of his own party let alone Loyalty from the Titan Buraucratic Machinery he has inherited from his predecessor Barack Obama, for the simple reason that He does not have the same Agenda as Obama implemented as a sycophant of the Status Quo… and the powers that be.
It is an agenda that Hillary Cinton was supposed to perpetuate.
These are the loathsome critters whom inhabit the Swamp Trump promised he would drain.
Obama and Clinton were merely Cogs in the Machine… There are far Greater vested Interests at work in the world.
Though there are many things not to like about Trump… none the less his successful election campaign has been one of the greatest of Spanners thrown into the gears of the Beast machine… and he has many powerful enemies as a result… both within Government and without.
All the vested Interests whom were growing the power of the State and suppressing the Rights and Liberties of the People.
Possibly the greatest threats Trump poses to the One world Order is his campaign promises to restore American Gun Rights that have been eroded… Guns in the hands of the people poses the greatest hurdle to the security of the Wealth and powers of the Status quo in the face of the coming Gigantic Financial collapse of the American Government.
They want to render ‘the Great unwashed’ powerless.
and secondly by Trumps moves to End the Rampant Pseudo-environmentalism with regards to the Scam of Global warming, and other diabolical United Nations Agendas… such as their persecution of Israel.
I remind Kiwis that it was Radical Green extremists whom had teamed up with the radical Racist extremists in the Urawera ranges and were practicing Murder, assignation, and hurling fire bombs… (Read about that here)
Radical Green Extremists are almost as fanatical about the destruction of Freedom as Isis and Al Qaeda!
So too are many of the Super wealthy… who look down upon us as ‘Useless Eaters’.
On another Front Brexit … Britain seeking to extract themselves from the EU is also of great weight… another return to Unilateral Sovereignty another set back to the One world Socialist Government agenda that will not go unchallenged.
The Wailing from the Millions of Dumbfounded Liberal Dip-shits across the globe has been deafening!
They want a Coup!
They want Trump assassinated!
And remember that *These are the hordes that have Zero scruples* when it comes to committing Violence and other crimes in order to fulfill their political aims.
These are the scum that Love using unchecked democracy to impose their oppressive lunatic policies on everyone yet scream blue murder when democracy fails to deliver the power back into *their hands*.
And the Danger for is very real for Trump and his family, and could Spring for virtually any quarter.
Christians ought to Heed Our Apostle Paul…
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.”
(1 Tim 2vs 1,2)
These dynamics expose just how far America has drifted await from it’s foundations.
What is being called ‘the Deep state’ … the 9 to 5 bureaucracy is not supposed to be Party agenda driven… let alone have it’s own, but faithful to the constitution, irrespective whom is elected into office… yet clearly they have been as corrupted by excessive power and over-reach and operate as their own vested interest… just as the Police dont want to end the war on Drugs *because of the loss of Power and revenue this will entail.
Thus the Deep state favors tyrannical executives whom grow the Bureaucracy… and enhance their jurisdictions at the expense of the rights and liberties of the people to whose rights they have sworn to protect, and in virtue of which is the only legitimate function for which they exist at all.
Any reforming President must now content with these powerful vested interests that have been allowed to accrue Un-constitutional powers by a sleepy and gullible population that has foolishly devalued their Rights and liberties and instead have been swindled via Government by Fear, Prejudice, and envy.
And this is extremely dangerous… think of 22 November 1963 in Dallas… 1pm
NAPOLITANO: The right to shoot tyrants, not deer
The Second Amendment is the guarantee of freedom…
The right of the people to keep and bear arms is an extension of the natural right to self-defense and a hallmark of personal sovereignty. It is specifically insulated from governmental interference by the Constitution and has historically been the linchpin of resistance to tyranny. Yet the progressives in both political parties stand ready to use the coercive power of the government to interfere with the exercise of that right by law-abiding persons because of the gross abuse of that right by some crazies in our midst.
When Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence that we are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights, he was marrying the nation at its birth to the ancient principles of the natural law that have animated the Judeo-Christian tradition in the West. Those principles have operated as a brake on all governments that recognize them by enunciating the concept of natural rights.
As we have been created in the image and likeness of God the Father, we are perfectly free just as He is. Thus, the natural law teaches that our freedoms are pre-political and come from our humanity and not from the government. As our humanity is ultimately divine in origin, the government, even by majority vote, cannot morally take natural rights away from us. A natural right is an area of individual human behavior — like thought, speech, worship, travel, self-defense, privacy, ownership and use of property, consensual personal intimacy — immune from government interference and for the exercise of which we don’t need the government’s permission.
The essence of humanity is freedom. Government — whether voted in peacefully or thrust upon us by force — is essentially the negation of freedom. Throughout the history of the world, people have achieved freedom when those in power have begrudgingly given it up. From the assassination of Julius Caesar to King John’s forced signing of the Magna Carta, from the English Civil War to the triumph of the allies at the end of World War II, from the fall of communism to the Arab Spring, governments have permitted so-called nobles and everyday folk to exercise more…. Read more >Here<
How Old is this planet? Get This straight… The Bible *does not* set a date for the creation of *The Planet Earth*. A person does not have to embrace ‘Young Earth’ Creationism to be a committed Bible believer.
This is a subject that though I have discussed many times on line, I ought to have blogged my definitive argument before now… given how important it is to defense of the Bible believers position in the trustworthiness of the Bible.
Tonight I will at least make a start.
My opening statement makes my position clear, so that it only remains for me to prove/ argue my point.
So many people on all sides of the Atheism vs Christian Theism debate are convinced that a necessary corollary of claiming to believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God (esp the literal interpretation of the book of Genesis) is that such a view *demands* also embracing the arguments of that reviled group of Christians known as ‘Young Earth creationists’ …. whom argue that *The Bible says* God Made the Universe… and the Earth… a mere 6000 years ago.
This date they have arrived at using an Historical Chronology tracing backwards the lineage of Christ to Adam … a practice that has been going on since at least the 17th century… see here the methodology of Ussher chronology
Though this period of time is not precisely recorded and requires some ‘educated guesses’, Most calculations vary by a mere decade, so that the Basic argument… that according to the Bible God made Adam approximately 6000 years ago… is sound.
So then it appears to many that to believe that God created the Earth for Adam and Eve, requires a person to believe the *Earth itself* was created *5 days* prior to his creation of Adam…. so in faith… that is precisely what millions of YEC Christians choose to believe.
In support for their faith, (like myself) they are aware that the Theory of Evolution is Full of holes… most Bible believers in fact see the theory of Evolution (of Man from Ape, from Rodent, from amphibian, from fish, from worm, from germ…) to be the very height of foolishness and absurdity, and also appreciate the *true advances in the science of Biology and genetics* continually validate the ancient claims of scripture… such as the species being locked into ‘Kinds’, and that the entire human race… is *one family* all carrying the genetic tags of being the offspring from a *single woman*… Mitochondrial Eve.
The Myth of Evolution… requires the Magic and imagination of Countless Millions of Years… and countless numbers of fortuitous unguided accidents to blindly transform Magic Bugs that spontaneously generated from the lifeless mud…into people, and so this Godless ideology conveniently postulates *an ancient Earth…in an ancient self assembling/ evolving Universe.
How Old?… well Every Time Evolutionists state their ‘Scientific Facts’… it is only a matter of months rather than years that *some newly discovered ‘Truth’, forces them to extend the Date of the creation of the universe Backwards by hundreds of millions… sometimes billions of years… proving the whole business to be highly dubious… Guesswork… based upon naive ignorance.
And foolish imaginations run wild… the more Billions of Years the Atheists claim … somehow the mystical powers of evolution are supposed to be *more believable*… as to their way of thinking…this multiplies the number of times their Zombie Goddess ‘Mother nature’ gets to roll her dice. They imagine that Germs can … slowly slowly…. become people…
On the other hand the YE creationists *Dont require to pre-suppose a Multi-billion year Timescale for their cosmology… on the contrary… by their interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis appears to Forbade such a Time-frame… They insist the Bible only allows a time scale of a magnitude in the very low thousands of years… that is the pre-supposition they labour under… and contend for.
Without continuing down this diversion, it is sufficient for my purposes to have pointed out the ideological presuppositions, and dubious nature of the ground upon which the the Bible Critics stand to oppose the YE Creationists, and the basis at the heart of Y E Creationist thinking.
Both groups are keen to subject the Data taken from observation and experiment to the explanatory power of their own bents.
Now having to some degree identified the basic positions of the antagonists… that are supposed to stand as a dichotomy.
An ‘Either- Or choice that people must assemble under one banner or the other…. Bible believers must be Young Earth Creationists… People who accept the theory of Evolution… must Reject the Book of Genesis as being Literally believable, and assume that the planet Earth has existed for Billions of years (last count I herd was the Universe is now supposed to being 13 billion years old, and the Earth 4 Billion.)…
Because of the bundles of suppositions entailed in the two camps, The pseudo-scientific Ideas of Darwinian Evolution has driven a rift within the Masses of people whom call themselves ‘Christians… so that in what is now being called ‘the post Christian Era’… a growing percentage of Christians have abandoned faith in the inerrancy of the Scriptures… and walking enmasse to join the camp of the Atheist Bible rejectors… and like them… choosing to place their faith in *Evolutionary Scientists* rather than the literal veracity of the Scriptures.
And they do this without so much a wink…. they claim that in abandoning the traditional Christian beliefs that they are acting in a more ‘enlightened manor’… and are shedding off ‘an ancient superstition’… that only continues to be embraced by Religious whackos….. Luddites whom have no grasp of science.
Ie… Though these Modern Bible rejecting Christians are now Standing with the infidels… and embracing their Skeptical rationale with respect to the believability and veracity of the Bible… they nonetheless claim *That they are the Holy defenders of the faith!*
That *They are saving Christianity from the dustbin*… by synthesizing Evolution with a Neo-Christianity.
This Form of Christianity *Puts Human Scholarship* and *Evolutionary anthropology*… and Many of the Tenets of Materialism… in authority … Not The Bible… that is rendered to be… a collection of Myths and Fables… only believed by the primitive mind.
This is how the modern liberal Christian sees the ‘The cult’ of Young Earth creationism…’The Cult’ of King James Bible believers…. etc.
Thus the Modern Liberal Christians put *Rationalism* ahead of Faith in Divine revelation and preservation of the scriptures.
And what is the greatest tragedy is that they do not appreciate that they have been absolutely deceived… that they have abandoned the high ground… and retreated in the face of Atheist delusions.
They are also now Free to ‘cherry pick’ what portions of the scriptures they find ‘pleasing’… and reject everything else as some sort of Human error or folly.
To them the Bible is no longer a supernatural book, but concur with the atheist anthropologist that the bible is just another collection of ancient religious texts that has been exposed to all the Human factors … priest-craft, etc… over the millennia.
With Glee they abandon *any scripture* that is difficult to defend… such as Noahs Flood, Joshua’s extermination of the Canaanites, The Doctrine of Hell, The doctrine that Homosexuality is sinful, The doctrine that woman ought to voluntarily subordinate themselves to their husbands, etc etc.
Satan laughing spreads his wings.
So when we stand back, we can perceive just how disastrous Darwin’s Ideas have been to Christendom, and how they have caused a great loss of Faith in the literal truthfulness of the Book of Genesis, and in many of the most fundamental christian values… in favor of Godless liberalisms.
Bible believers are becoming an endangered species.
Their faith is under constant attack… not just from Atheist Infidels… but also now from so-called Christian infidels… this Division of Christianity can very accurately be understood as Christian *Theists* who hold the traditional veiw that the book of Genesis is trustworthy and literally accurate, whereas the Modern Liberal Christian whom embraces Evolution may justly be described as ‘A Christian Deist’.
It is now time to state my own position more clearly.
Let me state that while I agree with the Young Earth types that the theory of Evolution is false…and that God Created Mankind as a special and distinct creature totally unrelated in the hereditary sence to apes, fish, etc… thus My cosmology does not demand aeons of time past… nonetheless,…intuitively… when I examine the geology and geography of the world about me, I find the supposition that the Earth has existed for Many aeons as the most plausible proposition.
I do not deny that The YEC’s have produced many interesting scientific arguments and evidences that undermine the assumptions of the Evolutionists time-frame, yet still I tend to agree with the sceptics of YE Creationism about the age of the Earth being a mere 6000 years old.
And Below I will seek to show you how my interpretation of the scriptures allows me to have a foot in *both camps*… thus I contend that the Dichotomy is false… ie That it is possible to be a Believer in the veracity of the Book of Genesis… and still accept the probability that the Earth is of ancient origin.
Unfortunately for me *my position* is not welcomed by either of the two antagonistic groups… yet for opposite reasons.
What is of the greatest weight, and why I disagree with the young Earth creationist interpretation of the First chapters of Genesis is that they make a fundamental error… they miss the fact that ‘The Earth’ as mentioned in these verses *does not represent the creation of *The Planet Earth* but the restoration of *The Dry Land* from a prior state of void inundation.
The importance of this is appreciated when you realise that Genesis chapter one is not the absolute beginning… the Ex nihilo creation of the Universe, world, etc for humanity… but the restoration of the planet and especially the emergence of *Dry land*… that pre-existed in a submerged state of Darkness and deluge… for an indeterminate period of time.
Let me now take you on a journey through time *as I believe the Bible teaches*… which comes to light with a deeper understanding of the scriptures… revealing the fact that A Bible believer *Ought not to assume* the Universe and the Earth are relatively recent creations… and that such a young view only results from an erroneous interpretation.
Above is a Chart by the Late Great Dispensationalist Clarence Larkin. (1850-1924) which shows the existence of Earth Before Genesis 1…
What needs to be understood is that there are two *Different* beginnings in the scriptures.
The one we are discussing in Genesis, and one in the first chapter of the Gospel of John….
John 1Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
Now it is my contention that this beginning spoken of in John is the real beginning of all creation… the Chronology of events (dispensational scheme) may be understood as follows…
First… before the first ‘beginning’ there was just God the Trinity.
Then he made the angels in heaven (Lucifer and co).
Then God …the pre-incarnate Jesus/The Word made the Universe and the original Earth (This is when the stars of heaven/Angels sang in wonder (Isaiah).
This was in the ancient past possibly billions of years ago.
I believe God created life on earth and put the Dinosaurs here.
Lucifer and the angels would walk upon the earth too.
Next was the Great Rebellion of Lucifer, and the beginning/ origin of evil.
In consequence… God’s Judgement was forthcoming.
God not only judged Lucifer and co but also destroyed the earth/ and maybe even the whole universe by flood.
All the above happened *Before the Time of the Book of Genesis.*
It is *now* that the *2nd beginning* mentioned in the Bible begins… Genesis Chapter 1 starts with the Earth and Universe already in existence… but in a state of Darkness and void. (Text at bottom of this post).
This is when the earth (dry land…not planet) was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep (The scriptures tell us God did not originally create the world without form or void in Isaiah)
…‘Time’ went by and then Gods Spirit moved across the face of the waters.
Genesis 1Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day”…. etc
Here we have the second beginning, or the preparation of the earth for Adam and mankind. Now *this beginning* would have happened in the recent past around 4000bc. This is when God abated the waters and re-established the universe for Mankind…after the fall of Lucifer and the scene was set for the story of the fall of Man.
And it is this *Second beginning* *Virtually Everybody* mistakes as being the time God created the planet Earth, and the universe.
Thus it is at this point… the creation of Adam, that I begin to concur with many of the truly traditional doctrines of theistic Christianity embraced by the Young Earthers… ie that the Book of Genesis is Literally true with regards to the Creation of Mankind, their Fall into sin and separation from God… the story of Noahs flood and God’s judgement of the Wicked… etc.
All things that the Modern Liberal Christian Deist recoils from.
… the rest of the Biblical narrative carries on… From Noah… through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel)…
Another Hidden Spiritual gem that comes to light via this doctrine is the appreciation that when God chose to destroy Wicked humanity by Flood… that he was in fact in keeping with a previous precedent of Judgment *already established*.
Noahs Flood was *the second flood*… a Second judgement of wickedness… The first happened when Lucifer Rebelled… the second when the Earth filled with Violent and wicked Children of Adam.
This is why though I endorse the Book of Genesis, and the whole Bible as being the inspired and preserved revelation from God that I contend such Bible believing faith does not corner me into also having to believe in a young Earth.
So what Age do I suppose the Earth to be?
*I dont know* 🙂
I dont have even a ball park figure… 100 thousand…1 million… 1000 million years?
Probably millions of years is my conjecture.
What is important to state is that The Bible does not say.
I understand *why* the various vested interests seek to overthrow the ideas of their antagonists, I am on my guard… and watching how any novel ‘proofs’ are fielded, and contended with.
I will say that this doctrine teaches us that the Earth has suffered at least two major cataclysms… of a Global scale…and that the Geological evidence is there… yet falsely ascribed to ‘Ice ages’ rather than Divine Floods.
This is a worthy topic for another Blog post.
I must say that though I do not endorse their ‘Young Earth’ premises, I am impressed by much of their ‘outside the orthodox box’ Scientific arguments, such as their evidence that Dinosaur Fossils probably are nowhere as old as the Evolutionists have claimed…
One of the traps of science is how erroneous ideas can become entrenched as ‘Orthodoxy’… and vested interest form that seek to protect these ‘orthodox’ views from challenges… and so via un-objective bias Bad Ideas can remain in currency long after they ought to have been thrown out. We are witnessing this as true not only with 150 years of Darwinism and their failure to conclusively establish anything near a believable lineage of Human evolution (or anything else)… but also with regards to *How Oil reserves are formed*, *That Dinosaur Fossils contain soft tissue*, That Fat in our diets is the chief cause of western obesity, etc etc.
The world needs people capable of questioning ‘orthodoxy’ and of pursuing un-orthodox ideas to see where they lead because so much can be learned when the mind has been unfettered from pre-conceptions and dares to imagine new possibilities.
So it is that though I dont endorse YE Biblical premises as to the age of the Earth, none the less it is exciting to see the sorts of Challenges their un-orthodox thinking is producing.
Important note: It is essential to apprehend the monumental difference between the theory of the ‘Darwinian Evolution’ of life, from the natural processes that are at work in the greater universe… the Laws of thermodynamics, Motion, gravity, etc… by which the whole universe is undergoing constant transformation. that can be thought of as the Hands of a clock changing position via the Cogs … as the spring slowly looses its tension… and the pendulum inevitably reaches a point of rest.
If we are to call the continuous results of the Blind yet Law-bound natural processes of the Material world ‘Evolution’ … then only a handful of dullards will not accept the veracity of these mechanistic activities… ie I in no way dispute the argument that with vast periods of time… the coalescence of clouds of particulate matter could form larger bodies… Barren Rocks, ice comets, etc, and that in fact these very forces are what maintain the semi-stable ‘Galaxies and solar systems.
It is astounding to me that Myriads of sheeple cannot apprehend *The stark contrast* between the sorts of phenomena that can be rightly explained and understood as a result of the interactions of the blind forces of Nature, from that most different and special classification of phenomena that can only be rationally understood as *intelligently assembled* … to the degree that both A fish… and a submarine belong under the same qualification… segregated from such things as Rough Diamonds and ocean currents. (which though at a deeper level are themselves intelligently ordered… they function in blind obedience to simple Laws)
It is at this juncture that the assertions in ‘Payleys Watch’ Lords Rational supreme over the Absurdities of Dawkins ‘Blind watchmaker’… and all the ridiculous Atheist rantings about Celestial teapots, Multiverses, etc.
It is worth noting here that the march of Science has in fact *Vindicated faith in the scriptures* in that today it is well understood by Science… that the universe did indeed *have a beginning* … which was an article of Biblical Faith poo pooed by Atheist materialists whom asserted the universe was eternal.
They were proven wrong… and in such a monumental fashion that the whole materialist argument has been proven false.
The Laws that Govern the Universe are not supreme, but temporal… and so greater… super-naturalism is now the fully vindicated *Rational position*… The Bibles assertion that the universe had a beginning and will also have an end… is now something *virtually everyone concedes.
A Greater *un-created Supernatural reality *of logical necessity* exists* from which this temporal universe… and Mankind… came into being… The Fundamental being of Reality… God.
Vindicating the scripture that says Gods certain existence is easily seen by the things that are made.
“…For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” Rom 1vs20
You would think that such a devastating Death punch to infidelity would render Materialist Atheism an abandoned superstition… yet so fanatical is the Zeal of the Godless to reject the Bible, that they choose to bury their heads in the sand… They Leap like frogs from their sinking lily pad onto another… pretending the knowledge that the universe had a beginning as being a support for their ‘reformed atheism’… that now hinges on the idea of a Godless Big Bang… and the slow evolution of the Universe via the blind forces of physics as I have already mentioned as being always at work (postscript 2.).
I understand the basic dynamics of their Godless theory… how from their measurements of the size of the Universe they compute a timescale, and Datum for the Big Bang.
I understand the rationale they employ as to *How they attempt to explain the existence of things like our moon*… using computer model simulations… inputting the values of the natural forces… postulating imaginary planet X of convenient size and velocity… working in conveniently calculated time frames… in fortuitous collision angles… stacking the Deck completely… and then claiming the resulting ‘result’ as a confirmation of their scientific Objectivity and the certitude of their whole Evolutionary premises.
They pretend that all their loading of the dice is somehow conclusive proof that God did not thoughtfully order the universe… that it is a mere fluke the The Earth, moon and sun are all so precisely arranged so as to be so fantastically conducive to the sustenance of life.
They delude themselves that they have proven *The whole shebang* to be Godless, Purposeless, meaningless, …
From all this I hope that my readers have apprehended that while I perceive the convoluted plausibility that Natural forces… astronomic impacts… might conceivably… in theory… produce phenomena *like the moon* … a Dead dusty Rock… that this in itself doe not *Prove* the moon was in fact made that way.
It is a symptom of the incredulous modern mind… so trapped in the naturalistic box… that it finds contemplation of anything spiritual, or miraculous painfully unbearable
There is no Science that disproves the idea that God made the universe almost exactly as it appears to us today.
Newton believed this.
He was convinced that the perfect proportionality of the cosmos smacks of the Divine.
The assertion that the moons was formed by natural means is simply an article of faith… stemming from an aversion to Super-naturalism.
Some Modern Liberal Christians whom fully embrace Naturalistic evolution will not wink at declaring that “God made everything… via evolution”.
They are deluding themselves via foolish sophistry….equivocating … ie Re-defining the Term ‘Evolution’ from it’s essential characteristic… that of being an ‘Un-purposed’ ‘unguided’ series of happenstances… into some sort of Divine plan….
I have always argued that if there was *No Earth*… *No Life*… No People… No cars and truck, etc… just a universe full of Burning Stars, and Barren Rocks… like the moon… like Venus, Mars, etc… well then *That sort of Universe* *would be wholly explicable in atheistic terms… Yet The existence of these *Super-natural* things absolutely refutes Atheism.
These things I deem to be *Intelligently designed*… some with the extra special quality of possessing *A soul*… consciousness… all things that *cannot be understood via the purely Materialist paradigm… though Darwinian Evolution does its very best to attempt this very feat.
*Which is in itself the fundamental driving force behind the religious fanaticism of the Atheist materialists*
They are hell bent on maintaining a belief that they have No God to thank for their own existence… No God to answer for how they go about their lives… they must maintain this delusion… at all costs… They simply *cannot allow* the Bible to be believed as scientifically or historically valid.
They delude themselves that they have a rational and scientific basis for their faith… boy are they in for a surprise!
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.